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Post by crimsontide on Jul 26, 2014 23:05:08 GMT
So LVG wants Wing Backs. Is this a good thing?
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danw91
United School Boy
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Post by danw91 on Jul 27, 2014 8:28:49 GMT
Think it will allow Shaw to grow as a player, worried about Rafael/Valencia on the opposite flank though
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 8:32:00 GMT
Think it will allow Shaw to grow as a player, worried about Rafael/Valencia on the opposite flank though Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think it suits Valencia down to the ground and probably Rafa too. I'm actually more worried for Shaw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 8:36:03 GMT
If we play with wing backs I have no worries for shaw, Valencia or raf. I would be much more concerned for Adnan. Not sure how we can incorporate him in a wide area in this sytem. Unless he moves into the CM 3?
Edit. Just a note on the overall system. I stand corrected but in all my 30 years watching English football a team playing 3CB's has never won the top flight. I am so so when it comes to this formation
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Post by johnboy14 on Jul 27, 2014 13:52:47 GMT
3 at the back has certainly made a comeback in the game, clubs like Napoli and Juventus have been playing with this system more recently and the importance of the wing backs is the single biggest weakness and strength of the system. They both need to be very rounded players because they provide the width needed to get behind teams because most teams deploy a diamond in midfield which is naturally very narrow. I think Shaw and Rafeal have potential in this position but Rafeal as we all know can't defend very well in a back 4 so I can see players having to tuck in to protect him. Personally I'm not sure about the 352, The best teams in europe right now don't play 352 or 343, its usually 433 or variations of 4231 or 451.
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Post by NR7 on Jul 27, 2014 14:38:34 GMT
In our league where many teams resort to long balls over the top or sling in crosses, 3-5-2 am not sure is a good idea. I generally found 3 at the back to be a tad inherently unbalanced. Plus it very demanding and requires a lot of tactical discipline. I wish LVG will revert to his favored 4-3-3.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 14:47:09 GMT
In our league where many teams resort to long balls over the top or sling in cross, 3-5-2 am not sure is a good idea. I generally found 3 at the back to be a tad inherently unbalanced. Plus it very demanding and requires a lot of tactical discipline. I wish LVG will revert to his favored 4-3-3. Exactly what I was trying to say in a longwinded way!
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Post by NR7 on Jul 27, 2014 14:50:00 GMT
In our league where many teams resort to long balls over the top or sling in cross, 3-5-2 am not sure is a good idea. I generally found 3 at the back to be a tad inherently unbalanced. Plus it very demanding and requires a lot of tactical discipline. I wish LVG will revert to his favored 4-3-3. Exactly what I was trying to say in a longwinded way! Atleast we agree on something
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Post by smithy2 on Jul 27, 2014 15:06:22 GMT
I like the idea however we will see how effective it is when we play Stoke early on a Saturday morning.
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Post by johnboy14 on Jul 27, 2014 16:53:22 GMT
In our league where many teams resort to long balls over the top or sling in crosses, 3-5-2 am not sure is a good idea. I generally found 3 at the back to be a tad inherently unbalanced. Plus it very demanding and requires a lot of tactical discipline. I wish LVG will revert to his favored 4-3-3. The best example I can find where it didn't work in recent memory was Guadiola's last season at Barcelona, he had to admit defeat in the end and go back to 433 though it was too late, he changed a winning team to accomdate fabregas, xavi, busquets and iniesta in the same team, that barcelona team was very disciplined tactically but even they couldn't make it work and to resort to what they knew. I found Van Gaal's comments about having to leave 3 or 4 strikers on the bench interesting. He's obviously looking at the current squad and realizes its inherently unbalanced and its about finding a system that allows him to get Rooney, Mata and Van Persie in the same team. Id love to see it work but if he's completely committed to 3 at the back I wouldn't be expecting the team to hit its stride at the start of the season, your asking entirely different questions from certain players, it will take time. The squad is suffering from the wrong signings in the last 3 or 4 seasons, we have too many players who possess the same qualities and enjoy playing behind a striker.
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Post by Rorschach on Jul 27, 2014 16:55:51 GMT
I think Shaw, Rafael and Valencia would all be good wing backs, although Valencia will have to work harder on his defensive game after being a winger most of his club career and often central for Ecuador. That said, I'm not entirely convinced by the 3-5-2 formation. The whole formation is massively reliant on the wing-backs and it must be bloody shattering for them in that position, having to provide both the attacking threat on the wings and all of the defensive cover on the wings.
If they're having a poor game or they're up against a top winger then their attacking threat is going to be poor, meaning the team then becomes very narrow and restricted to the centre. The centre backs can't go out to cover the wing backs because then the central defence will be exposed with only 1 defender and the forwards can't really go out of position to cover for any lack of attacking threat because the central midfield will be exposed.
It also concerns me that there won't be any place, or at least not many games, for players like Januzaj and Kagawa.
That's just me though, an armchair manager who has played far too much Football/Champ Manager over the years.
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Post by Stew on Jul 27, 2014 17:47:01 GMT
If you are going to go 3-5-2 I think DM is a hugely important player. He's vital to stopping attacking mids in particular getting at the defence. We don't have a great one. Fletch and Clevs did ok but there is an oppourtunity for an upgrade there.
However, the advantage for us is that it seems to have fixed the problem of how to play Rooney and Mata together without shifting one out to the wing. If RVP can play in Welbecks position (currently) then it's worth trying. But as you say, when there are crosses being pumped in by the likes of Stoke we'll see how it goes.
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Post by fletchabey on Jul 27, 2014 17:48:13 GMT
LvG will use the system he see's as most suitable for the squad he has. Our current set up makes a lot of sense, we can accommodate 2 strikers and a number 10 at the expense of a winger. So we can use our strongest area of the squad (strikers, 10's) effectively, while not using the wing play that has frustrated so much recently. My only concern is that Adnan will suffer for it.
As LvG says though, the squad is imbalanced. With the Netherlands, not having Strootman forced him to reconsider his set up. Similarly having him or someone like him sign could change the formation also, so thats something we could see.
In terms of tactical paper-scissors-stones, 3-5-2 isn't a bad idea. My understanding is its more dangerous against the 4-4-2 style with real wingers to provide width and make runs, causing problems between wing back and CB's. Thats gone heavily out of favour to 4-3-3 with teams stocking up more attacking-midfielders-who-wander types.
Also to point out LvG has stated were already pretty comfortable with 4-3-3, so the emphasis on the other style makes sense as it a lot different for all our players. well just have to se as it plays out (and the transfers) over the next couple of weeks.
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Post by johnboy14 on Jul 27, 2014 18:51:14 GMT
Also to point out LvG has stated were already pretty comfortable with 4-3-3, so the emphasis on the other style makes sense as it a lot different for all our players. well just have to se as it plays out (and the transfers) over the next couple of weeks. I don't think its easy to switch it on and off, one minute 433 and then something entirely different. Looking at liverpool last season they played 4231 pretty much all year but rodgers would tweak small details here and there and they caught alot of the big teams on the hop, Personally Im a fan of 433 but it would never work at united due to personnel.
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Post by dsilvaxx2 on Jul 27, 2014 19:14:33 GMT
3 at the back has certainly made a comeback in the game, clubs like Napoli and Juventus have been playing with this system more recently and the importance of the wing backs is the single biggest weakness and strength of the system. They both need to be very rounded players because they provide the width needed to get behind teams because most teams deploy a diamond in midfield which is naturally very narrow. I think Shaw and Rafeal have potential in this position but Rafeal as we all know can't defend very well in a back 4 so I can see players having to tuck in to protect him. Personally I'm not sure about the 352, The best teams in europe right now don't play 352 or 343, its usually 433 or variations of 4231 or 451. Rafael is about the only defender in the back 4, including the DM/CM that can actually tackle, Vidic when healthy was the other. My main concern is the make up of the three center backs, Jones is not ready for that Central position, Evans was exposed on the LCB slot, and Smalling seems to think that defending is extending his arms out and stop a attacking player by constantly fouling him. We need a central CB that has the technical ability to not only tackle, but is gifted with both feet, and can pass out of trouble when needed. Also needs to be a leader and communicator with the back line, not sure if our current three check off any of those boxes...
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