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Post by moxdevil on Jan 30, 2012 20:55:28 GMT
****************RANT ALERT*******************
I've been thinking for a long time that our academy must be one of the most over-rated in the world.
It has been 17 years since the golden generation of Scholes, Butt, Beckham et al came through and what have we produced since? Brown, Evans, O'Shea, Fletcher, and a host of championship footballers.
Considering the amount of money spent on the academy and the ability of the club to attract some of the best youngsters from Europe shouldn't we be producing a better standard of player than what we do?
It's all very well having a sparkling building with all the mod cons when nothing of note comes out of it.
I'm of the opinion that the coaching standards leave a lot to be desired. Some of the better youngsters - namely the one's we've stolen for compensation from other clubs - Pique, Rossi etc have actually blossomed once they have got away from the club. Whereas players like Macheda have not improved whilst they have been at the club and talented youngsters that have come such as Anderson look a shadow of the player they could have been (have a look at the footage of him at Gremio and Porto and tell me if you saw him being an unimaginative holding midfielder).
Ronaldo as an argument against the hundreds of players that haven't materialised doesn't work either as he would probably have become the player he is today if he'd stayed at Sporting Lisbon.
It's not even a "big club" issue either as take a look at the other giants of European football and you'll find they have a better record of producing players of their own in the last 15 years than we do under the academy system.
Maybe i am over-reacting and the academy is on the cusp of producing the future, except i don't believe it is and the current players at academy level come with no more hype that all those that have come and failed before them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 4:14:17 GMT
seriously u r joking right? barca didnt have shit coming through their academy just until a few years ago...real madrid barely use any of their youth players...every club has a golden generation..u cant just keep producing scholes' and giggs' all the time...we were one of the first european clubs to introduce youth players into our first team in the 50's thanks to sir matt
and we have produced amazing players even after the class of 92..what abt fletcher, evans, welbeck, cleverley, morrisson, pogba etc?
also dont forget there were so many restrictions on english clubs such as the 90 minute rule...now that they have removed that rule under the EPPP, england in general shud be producing much better players in the future...kids from all over england can get to develop themselves technically and physically at a much smaller age at bigger clubs...that will bring us on level terms with the other big clubs outside england...also dont forget that United produce more homegrown talent than any other top english club(not comparing the likes of westham here, i said the top clubs).....consider the fact that english players in general were under shortage in the last 15 years...that might have been another reason
dont be so pessimistic...i doubt u'd be saying this if we weren't dumped out of europe twice this season
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Post by Stew on Mar 31, 2012 7:26:45 GMT
I think you have some valid points Mox. But I think Cleverley and Welbeck look set to be first team players for a long time so they can be added to the list of those that have made it recently, hopefully Pogba too. When you look at Utd, even though we have a reputation for producing homegrown talent, there has been a couple of exceptional occasions when loads have come at once, the babes, 92, most of the team in the 60s, but a lot of the time it's been a player here or there like, say Whiteside. McGrath etc in the 80s, O'Shea late 90s etc. It seems that the late 70s into the 80s saw a cooling off period in the production line. I know Fergie mentioned in his book that the youth policy at the club had fallen way behind City's when he arrived.
Getting a first teamer every few years is more in keeping with other clubs so i think the cases where there is a large group of them at one time are the exception not the norm. And if a team is constantly involved in title races it is difficult to give young players the time to develop. We'll probably see a lot more season long loans at other premiership teams a la Welbeck last year as he's come on hugely.
I think we have a better success rate than most other teams in fairness. Watching the Youth Cup game last week the commentator said this was the 3rd time in 4 years the Rents have been in the semis. How many of those players have you heard of? And you know they were brought in at great expense.
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Post by Bestie on Mar 31, 2012 9:12:03 GMT
Yeah, stew touched on it there, but I firmly believe that the reason you don't see a raft of young players being drafted into the first team now compared to the early 90s is because we are massively successful now. Yes, we had been successful pre-Sir Alex, but not to the same level for a long time.
The game as a whole, the League overall and on the pitch, has changed. It's faster, it's more intense earlier in the season. Slip ups in November can be more costly, look at the way Chelsea started the first couple of Premier League wins under Mourinho - they started so fast that we didn't have a chance to get our shit together and give a challenge. Youngsters cannot be put into the firing line 4/5 at a time anymore. Our young players need to be better straight away and that makes promoting them difficult. Look at the number of players, for example, who we have moved on to Championship clubs and they have then moved to a Premier league team. We are producing top division players, just not top 3 club in the world standard. And those sort of players are rare anyway.
If we could introduce 2 Academy graduates every, say 3, seasons, I'd be happy.
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Post by fletchabey on Mar 31, 2012 9:36:18 GMT
Our Academy is by far the best in the country. Actually there was even an independent report that said so last year. There is clear daylight between us and the rest England.
I think your missing out a lot of things though. First off its harder to create a United quality player than even just a premiership footballer. I dont think you really thought about it but there are a number of our products plying their trade in the premier league at the moment. Off the top of my head Shawcross, Richardson, Campbell, Simpson, Bardsley, Ebanks-Blake, Gibson, Eagles. Maybe some others I forget, and certainly some others who are a bit on the older side.
English clubs also suffer from the double 90 minute rule. The first being you cant train under 16's for more than 90 mins per day, unlike Spain for example. The second is you can only sign players within a 90 minute drive, that's huge. Unlike Barca who can hoover up the talent from anywhere and everywhere. That's why we so often have to go pillaging other countries like Italy, France, or Holland to steal their youth.
And with any youth development, there is an element of luck. You may take on a dozen youth at a time but there arent any guarantees on how they will develop. Sometimes you get lucky others you don't. If we get 1 player per year good enough for a United squad we are doing ok, seriously.
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Post by Stew on Mar 31, 2012 9:57:54 GMT
Aye. luck does come into it. Pique might have stayed if Rio and Vidic weren't so good. And it's just plain bad luck that Morrison was a tool.
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Post by moxdevil on Mar 31, 2012 13:19:18 GMT
I'm not interested in what we produced before the Beckham, Scholes generation. Fact is we haven't produced one truly top class player since.
We have produced plenty of players that have been squad players, and even more that are for the lower premier league teams and the championship - great if that is what the academy is there for but it isn't.
Most of the names i am seeing mentioned are players that we hope will be regulars for years to come, although to be fair that isn't really saying much especially considering the drop in talent we have seen, especially in midfield over the years.
Even the foreign youngsters that we have poached, and kept hold of, haven't yet shown enough to justify the reputation of our academy.
As for the Gibson's, Richardson's etc. Honestly anyone wanted to see these players starting for United when they were at the club? So why big them up since they were off-loaded?
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Post by fletchabey on Mar 31, 2012 13:30:10 GMT
As for the Gibson's, Richardson's etc. Honestly anyone wanted to see these players starting for United when they were at the club? So why big them up since they were off-loaded? The point is, which you practically say, there is quite a gulf between a United quality player and premiership quality player. At the end of the day you can only work with what you have, do you have any examples of players we should have scouted (within the 90 min rule naturally) and missed? Or any players who we should have turned into a world class player but failed to do so because of our training methods? Are other clubs around the country churning out these World class talents that we are failing to do so? |
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Post by moxdevil on Mar 31, 2012 13:41:36 GMT
The academy is meant to be there to produce players and build on what early potential they show. The fact that it doesn't makes it a complete waste of space to the club if it isn't producing players for the club. That makes the issue of a lack of talent coming through other clubs irrelevant as we spend more money on our academy than most if not all.
Lad from Croxteth is within the 90 min rule.
"Or any players who we should have turned into a world class player but failed to do so because of our training methods?"
Like trying to prove a negative. Can only base my opinion on what i see as the end result.
Arguably Southampton produced one that we have attempted to sign.
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Post by Stew on Mar 31, 2012 13:59:37 GMT
I don't think it's a stretch to say Welbeck and Cleverely are going to be top players. Everything suggests they will be. Is Evans now a top player? Arguably. He's pretty much been first choice all year. Yes, this is due in large to Vidic's injury but he's taken his chance. I agree with you in that there had been a big drop off since Beckham, Scholes etc but it looks like we may be back on track. If in 2 or 3 years time Evans, Welbeck, Cleverley and hopefully Pogba are all first team regulars then the academy has done it's job and done it very well. And as I said above, it' just rank bad luck that the best of the lot happened to be a fucking idiot that couldn't be controlled.
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Post by moxdevil on Mar 31, 2012 14:06:10 GMT
Welbeck is the most likely in my opinion based on what i have seen. He's keeping Chicho and Berbagod out of the side. Cleveley hasn't played enough for my liking to see if he is closer to a starter for United or a back up quality player.
I just think we make too many excuses for the lack of end product. If England isn't producing that is no reason for why we as a club shouldn't buck that trend especially considering we have no issue taking youngsters from around the world.
Possibly the problem isn't just with what the acadamies are doing. God knows what a low opinion i have of reserve team football and kids with potential having their potential killed off by the appalling quality of it.
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Post by ericactor1 on Mar 31, 2012 17:59:58 GMT
With the new rule implemented our youth system will improve.
Spain had an advantage over english clubs, they could work with young lads a lot longer than english clubs could.
In four or five years english clubs will be right back up there matching spain if not bettering them.
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Post by ScholesEvilTwin on Mar 31, 2012 19:42:10 GMT
You do know there isnt a "World Class" serum we just inject into players right? That it isnt as simple as flicking a switch and *poof* they're world class.
If the players themselves just arent that good enough to play for us when they reach a certain age whats the club to do about it? And how is it the clubs/coaches fault?
Are you a qualified coach? Do you go to Carrington every day to watch the coaches train the players? So how can you say they are shite just because there havent been any world class players coming through by the bucketload?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 20:17:20 GMT
There is a big difference between academy level and first team football level. Some of the Academy players at the moment look like they have some real talent, but it is unclear to see unless they get given a chance. The reason were not producing enough (class of 92') talent has nothing to do with the coaches. You either have it or you dont at that level. The coaches are there to fine tune your ability not to give you superhuman powers. I cant give a reason why we havent becuase I dont know but we cant keep comparing these youngsters to those back in 92.
They were a special group of players that will NEVER be copied. Its like people comparing Schmeichel to every single keeper we keep getting. Stop comparing them ffs. Its up to the players to prove their ability to play in the first team, if they cant cut as much as its a shame then thats how its meant to be.
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Post by Dan United on Mar 31, 2012 20:21:25 GMT
I think Moxie has a valid argument, but I would say that we just can't afford to take risks like we used to be able to because of how tight the league is. Barca and Real, as well as having the benefit of being able to cherry pick the best talent, have a piss easy league so in 18 of the 19 league matches they play they can generally afford to play an inexperienced youngster at some point. We just don't really have that luxury.
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