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United School Boy
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Post by _ on Apr 8, 2012 20:54:19 GMT
I am confused here? why is some members referring me to Marty?
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Post by Rio5 on Apr 8, 2012 22:13:22 GMT
Didn't see the game today, was out of town dammit, but I do not support diving, we don't need Drogba in team.
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Post by Bestie on Apr 8, 2012 23:21:31 GMT
So I've seen the thing again on MotD2, and there's an angle from behind which gives a longer look at what happened, and it does look like Derry had a strong enough wee push out at Young. It certainly wasn't 'hand near, goes down'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 0:33:15 GMT
I'm biased towards any United player, but I do think there is a difference between a diver and an exaggerator.
I don't see Young just throwing himself down for nothing, no contact just a plain old dive. These are the players who need seriously condemned and retrospectively banned.
An exaggerator looks to make the most of contact, be it a slight trip, push or just a touch. Not technically diving, and very difficult to stop. How can one man tell another that he could have stayed up after he was given a little nudge while running? Some can, some can't.
At the end of the day, refs have brung this on themselves. How often have we seen a player being clearly fouled, but doing the "right" thing and staying on his feet, and getting nothing from the ref?
Where's the advantage is staying up then? Never mind players needing to help refs, they need to help themselves and see that a player can be fouled but still try to play on, if nothing comes from the move a free kick or pen can be given. This never happens so players just think, "What the hell" and go down. Is that wrong? It depends which way your looking at it. Should a player fall over when he doesn't need to? Probably not. But should another player get away scot free with fouling in the box, because the player he fouled tries to stay up, and the ref is too dumb to realise that it's still a pen? No, of course he shouldn't, if you foul you foul, why should you get away with it?
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Post by mltezr on Apr 9, 2012 1:08:57 GMT
yeah i didnt like seeing it.
but then when the comentators wouldnt shut up about it, saying we always get the decisions, bringing up last week against fulham, but somehow forgetting the one against rio, i actually felt happy he did it.
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Post by Ole's Red Whiteknight03 Army on Apr 9, 2012 3:44:06 GMT
You know what? I've changed my mind, and am getting quite sick of all the hand wringing and much ado about nothing that accompanies this whole diving debate. This is the only serious footballing country with pretensions of winning major tournaments where diving or simulation is so stigmatized to the extent people will phone up a radio station and say that they wouldn't like one of their players to dive if it meant winning a World Cup. The Spanish, the Italians, Germans, Dutch, French, all the South American countries etc all view diving as doing what it takes to win and would throw themselves to the ground at the drop of a hat if they thought it would give them an advantage. What makes us so pious and holier than thou to place ourselves on this ivory pedestal and somehow think that this moral high ground makes up for 50 years of under-performance at major tournaments?
All of this talk about developing players who are technically able with the ball at their feet, like the Spanish, Italians, South Americans etc goes hand in hand with exaggerating contact/simulation/diving. If players are allowed to get hoofed up in the air by a defender so long as he makes slight contact with the ball, they are going to move it on before said brute gets close enough. Technically able players aren't scared of being kicked, because if a defender gets near them they will throw themselves on the floor and try to get the brute booked, to concede a penalty or get sent off. The Barcelona players are a case in point. Their tika taka style depends on their ability to discourage tackles, through diving, feigning injuries, trying to get the opponent booked etc. Players need this self defense mechanism otherwise they will get the crap kicked out of them, and if we are going to encourage our players to adopt this style, they will need all the tools necessary to be successful at it, which includes diving.
I will say that there is a difference, in my mind, between diving like Andy Carroll, and exaggerating contact like Young did today. Players who blatantly dive when there has been no contact at all should be booked and shamed. Players like Suarez who are repeat offenders will develop a reputation and become the boy who cried wolf. The more you do it, and the more obvious you are, the less effective it becomes. Young's was borderline as there was minimal contact, but if defenders are allowed to clean people out just because they got a slight nick on the ball, then attackers are allowed to go down if they feel the slightest touch.
Lastly, I must say that the most important difference between cheats and players who make the most of contact is the team they play for. Football is tribal, and when Suarez or Drogba fall over without having their legs snapped in half they are diving cheating bastards. When Young feels the slightest bit of contact and goes over, he earned that decision. I'm not turning on one of our own over it, but when the enemy does it I'll scream bloody murder. It's all part of the hypocritical existence of a football fan. Besides, listening to the all the ABUs on 606 tonight claiming that the only reason we win things is the favorable treatment we get from referees, (and hearing Alan Green encouraging it) makes it all the more enjoyable.
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Post by SAF_Legend on Apr 9, 2012 5:09:18 GMT
Never condoned diving, feigning injuries or exaggeration. I understand that major parts of Europe and South America accept "cheating" as "clever", but I guess it's not as "clever" when the politicians do a bit cheating / embezzling no? Don't like it, don't think cheating has any role in Football. If this goes on, just make tackling an illegal move and we can have a penalty shoot out. Personally, football is meant to be a "gentlemen's game", and I guess this means honest football skills against football skills (defending is certainly a skill), and leave the theatrics to the actors and actresses.
I don't like it when one of our players dive / play-act. Ferguson has done extremely well to curb it to a certain extent, so I hope it will continue.
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Post by mightyez on Apr 9, 2012 6:26:00 GMT
what young did today he does frquently. the manager needs to get him and tell him to cut that rubbish out. it just sullies the club in un-needed controversy
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Post by benji09 on Apr 9, 2012 9:23:07 GMT
I think we need to bare in mind, as bestie said, it is easier to be knocked off your feet at speed and if you're a light ass.
Offside was the only objective mistake.
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Post by Bestie on Apr 9, 2012 11:18:45 GMT
whiteknight, you're a sensible guy. I know you are because you usually post sensible things on this forum. You're a lad who I wouldn't mind meeting up with a bunch of lads and talking football for a few hours.
But by God, I did not just read you defending or even supporting the sort of filthy, disgusting, anti-football cheating that this current Barcelona team employ to make sure they win games. They are serial cheats, and they do it as a collective. It stems from Guardiola and the whole hierarcy of the club, complaining about pitches that are different to theirs, whining that teams defend against them too much. I desperately do not want this thread to move onto the subject of Barcelona, but I cannot sit idly by and watch anybody try and propugate the myth that Barcelona are 'allowed' to cheat because they're also quite good at football.
As for the broader point, I feel that it is good that we as a League are so harsh on divers and cheats. It may be behind the times of what everyone else thinks they can get away with, but I would rather holding onto our morals than be successful. Christ knows it's naive, and I understand completely that it's hypocritical given what other bullshit we allow ourselves to go along with (T. V./Sky money, killing of the grassroots-up game, pricing out normal fans). But wouldn't it be nice, if just once, we could legitimately cling onto the moral high ground?
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Post by giggsleftfoot on Apr 9, 2012 12:11:58 GMT
Really surprised at the red card decision but Ashley needs to cut it out.
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Post by johnboy14 on Apr 9, 2012 12:33:42 GMT
So I've seen the thing again on MotD2, and there's an angle from behind which gives a longer look at what happened, and it does look like Derry had a strong enough wee push out at Young. It certainly wasn't 'hand near, goes down'. Come on bestie, he dived ;D Its a shame we can't just be honest about this and admit the shit dived. Its totally acceptable to dive and the way pundits like micky quinn talk about push the rules as he says is really sad. Football is miles behind sports like golf, snooker and rugby when it comes to cheating and dealing with cheats. Like i said ban them for 5 or 6 games and it would be eradicated quickly. Yeah history remembers winners but we also remember cheats e.g. maradona. |
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Post by Bestie on Apr 9, 2012 12:55:22 GMT
So I've seen the thing again on MotD2, and there's an angle from behind which gives a longer look at what happened, and it does look like Derry had a strong enough wee push out at Young. It certainly wasn't 'hand near, goes down'. Come on bestie, he dived ;D Its a shame we can't just be honest about this and admit the shit dived. Its totally acceptable to dive and the way pundits like micky quinn talk about push the rules as he says is really sad. Football is miles behind sports like golf, snooker and rugby when it comes to cheating and dealing with cheats. Like i said ban them for 5 or 6 games and it would be eradicated quickly. Yeah history remembers winners but we also remember cheats e.g. maradona. Nah mate, come on. A dive is what Carroll did, Young felt the contact and let himself go over. There is definately a difference. If he had "dived" dived I would be the first to condemn him but some people on here have gone completely over the top. Like I said earlier, running at full pace and they Young does, barely touching the ground, a nudge is enough. He's not exactly the biggest guy in the world either, Ashley Young. |
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Post by johnboy14 on Apr 9, 2012 13:04:19 GMT
Come on bestie, he dived ;D Its a shame we can't just be honest about this and admit the shit dived. Its totally acceptable to dive and the way pundits like micky quinn talk about push the rules as he says is really sad. Football is miles behind sports like golf, snooker and rugby when it comes to cheating and dealing with cheats. Like i said ban them for 5 or 6 games and it would be eradicated quickly. Yeah history remembers winners but we also remember cheats e.g. maradona. Nah mate, come on. A dive is what Carroll did, Young felt the contact and let himself go over. There is definately a difference. If he had "dived" dived I would be the first to condemn him but some people on here have gone completely over the top. Like I said earlier, running at full pace and they Young does, barely touching the ground, a nudge is enough. He's not exactly the biggest guy in the world either, Ashley Young. Have you played sport?, the chances are you have at some point. Yes its easy to knock a person over at full speed but its not that easy. Having played alot of rugby i could take some serious wacks and still stay on my feet. Messi is tiny and vidic struggled to get him off his feet when he was climbing all over his back. My point is if you really want to stay on your feet you can in most circumstances. Most players are waiting for the contact, they expect it so they just keep there leg in and get ready to fall over. How many times have you seen penalties given against goal keepers because strikers just want to get to the ball first and its irrelevant if they touch it miles from goal because they know any contact by the goalie and its a penalty. Its not just young that does this obviously but this grey area in diving does annoy me. |
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Post by jimbonda on Apr 9, 2012 13:31:02 GMT
WK i can't agree with what looks like you ridiculing us as a nation for being diving intolerant. we are right to come down on the cheaters that spoil the game. so what if other nations do it. George Best used to get absolutely mullered by the opposition with stuff that would probably see the offender get arrested today and he didn't dive around and feign injury. we've watched players like drogba doing it for years, now the likes of suarez. it's a sad day when we turn a blind eye to it.
on the point about players running at pace - yes a clip can send them flying. it's not always obvious whose tumble is legit and who has taken a dive.
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