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Post by jimbonda on Nov 12, 2012 16:04:54 GMT
cleverleys work rate is excellent. but he presses the ball further up rather than sitting back and mopping up. not that type of player We need more pressing the oppo ball further up the pitch, not less of it. You don't need to mop anything up when you win the ball back on or higher than the edge of the centre circle. And if you want a 'tackler' in midfield for games like Chelsea or city to deal with Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Silva, Toure etc., play Fletcher or Jones there. Otherwise, we should be consistently pressing teams higher up the pitch and forcing mistakes in positions before we're worrying about mopping things up in front of our back four. yeah i agree. i don't expect to see cleverley protecting the back 4 in some orthodox defensive midfield role, he's not that sort of player. which is why we can't have a center mid pairing of clev and kagawa because they both press and we'd be left wide open. it's good to have players that press, i'm not saying we need less of it. but you can't have nothing between a midfield pressing high up the pitch and your back 4. as for carrick i know you're not knocking him. again though, if we want him out the side we need to spend money and overhaul the center of midfield because i don't see another combination who can be trusted over a season.
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Post by Bestie on Nov 12, 2012 16:37:19 GMT
I actually think we could look at playing a 'diamond back-four'. Send one of our CBs to go be the "midfield" clearer, and pull the full-backs a little tighter. Most teams play with one up front against us anyway. I'm not advocating 3 at the back, I'm just suggesting that when Rafa and Evra step up, our 'spare' CB can step up a little further and do the mopping up if necessary. Just getting up the striker's arse and poking a foot in, causing difficulty and a bit of a hold up to allow the rest of our team to get back. Actually taking control of the situation early in our own half rather than all-out retreating. Again, it would require us playing with default defence higher up the pitch, because playing that way on our 18 yard line would in fact be suicide. Like so: -- -- [At least 5+ yards from the 18 yard line] -- -- -- -- --- -- -- ¦¦ -- -- -- -- Rafael -- Rio -- -- V -- -- Evra -- -- -- -- Evans-- -- -- - -- Ball-carrier
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 17:00:42 GMT
I actually think we could look at playing a 'diamond back-four'. Send one of our CBs to go be the "midfield" clearer, and pull the full-backs a little tighter. Most teams play with one up front against us anyway. I'm not advocating 3 at the back, I'm just suggesting that when Rafa and Evra step up, our 'spare' CB can step up a little further and do the mopping up if necessary. Just getting up the striker's arse and poking a foot in, causing difficulty and a bit of a hold up to allow the rest of our team to get back. Actually taking control of the situation early in our own half rather than all-out retreating. Again, it would require us playing with default defence higher up the pitch, because playing that way on our 18 yard line would in fact be suicide. Like so: -- -- [At least 5+ yards from the 18 yard line] -- -- -- -- --- -- -- ¦¦ -- -- -- -- Rafael -- Rio -- -- V -- -- Evra -- -- -- -- Evans-- -- -- - -- Ball-carrier NO NO NO i hear all the coaches amongst us shout. You can not have dog legs like this in your defensive line. I actually think our defenders are not as bad as people think. I believe the problems we have faced this season have been caused by lack of cover from or midfield. I admit we must do beeter as a back four from set pieces but im certain we will get this right. Remember: 1 ) Bales goal against us -- running directly at our back four without any sign of a covering midfield player 2) Gerrard ghosting into our box again no tracking player 3) Ramirez scoring against us just like gerrard I could go on. The point im making is when our midfield give us a bit more protection we will be fine. I know the lads are working their arses off in training to get this sorted. I do not believe we need to anything drastic to sort this out. Just bloody hard work is what it comes down to really.
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Post by Bestie on Nov 12, 2012 17:06:55 GMT
Actually, I am a coach. For what it's worth. And I'm not talking about a permanent dog-leg, I'm saying when the opportunity presents itself to impose ourselves, we send Jonny (Or Smalling, or in 7-9 years, Jones). Players running direc-ally at the back-four won't be happening if we press teams on the halfway line, that's the whole point.
Also, we started out that way against Barcelona in Wembley - Vidic was trasked with stepping up right on top of Messi - and did alright keeping him quiet (things somewhat fell apart when we forgot to do the rest of the defending though), so there is obviously some joy there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2012 17:23:24 GMT
Actually, I am a coach. For what it's worth. And I'm not talking about a permanent dog-leg, I'm saying when the opportunity presents itself to impose ourselves, we send Jonny (Or Smalling, or in 7-9 years, Jones). Players running direc-ally at the back-four won't be happening if we press teams on the halfway line, that's the whole point. Also, we started out that way against Barcelona in Wembley - Vidic was trasked with stepping up right on top of Messi - and did alright keeping him quiet (things somewhat fell apart when we forgot to do the rest of the defending though), so there is obviously some joy there. Yeah I am a coach aswell that has coached 3 kids that are now professionals in England. Anyway I just think with a back four you just cant beat both centre halves being directly in line whrever possible. I take your point but I think our defence will be ok once the proper cover from midfield is provided. Do you think an out and out defensive midfielder is required now that we have so much attacking prowess? Dare I say it(and i hate the little cunt) but someone in the mould of masceranno?
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Post by jimbonda on Nov 12, 2012 17:25:31 GMT
Yeah I am a coach aswell that has coached 3 kids that are now professionals in England. which players?
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Post by Kamilo on Nov 12, 2012 17:43:13 GMT
Mascherano? Practically a CB now. How bout the arguable cunt that is De Rossi, or Schwienstieger. That, IMO is what is needed. Fellaini interests me, but we need to figure out where Kagz is going to play first.
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Post by SAF_Legend on Nov 12, 2012 21:22:15 GMT
You know something, I have come to a conclusion that I am happy with how United are playing. At the start of the season, I was uttering about how United should just forgo their defence and concentrate on the attack potency with the players we have. And to be honest, even if we haven't played exactly the way I imagined it, nor the tactics how I imagined, the results are what I expected them to be. So, I can't really complain... much. If we keep winning, even with the gaping defensive loophole we've got. As for Kagawa, just stick him in the middle, up front of or on the wing. Will be interesting to see how he fares. Honestly, I feel bad for the guy so far. By the way, did Anderson play at the wings for Porto in the past? I could have sworn seeing his position as "AML" on one of the previous version of FM.
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Post by Bestie on Nov 12, 2012 22:46:58 GMT
Actually, I am a coach. For what it's worth. And I'm not talking about a permanent dog-leg, I'm saying when the opportunity presents itself to impose ourselves, we send Jonny (Or Smalling, or in 7-9 years, Jones). Players running direc-ally at the back-four won't be happening if we press teams on the halfway line, that's the whole point. Also, we started out that way against Barcelona in Wembley - Vidic was trasked with stepping up right on top of Messi - and did alright keeping him quiet (things somewhat fell apart when we forgot to do the rest of the defending though), so there is obviously some joy there. Yeah I am a coach aswell that has coached 3 kids that are now professionals in England. Anyway I just think with a back four you just cant beat both centre halves being directly in line whrever possible. I take your point but I think our defence will be ok once the proper cover from midfield is provided. Do you think an out and out defensive midfielder is required now that we have so much attacking prowess? Dare I say it(and i hate the little cunt) but someone in the mould of masceranno? Well I guess my badges mean fuck all then, seeing as I have never coached a player to be a professional in England. Ferguson himself has said we won't have a destroyer type, and I for one definitely don't want one either. We're not the type of club to just play a marginally-talented spoiler just because he can snap into tackles. I prefer us to have footballers who can do the nasty work. I actually agree that your back four should be a solid, in-line, unit in basically every occasion. However, with our talent going the other way, I wouldn't mind us working out a system that allows as many of our good attacking threats on the pitch as possible, even if it means sacrificing defensive normalcy.
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sleel6
United Bench Warmer
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Post by sleel6 on Nov 13, 2012 9:29:28 GMT
From what I have seen from this Wanyama albeit not much he may be the man we need to sit beside Clevs in the midfield and do a bit of dirty work.
I agree with everyone who says our midfield (particuarly Scholes and Carrick) leave our defense too exposed as we saw with all of Spurs' goals against us, Arsenal's goal, Chelsea, etc. The list is endless.
Also gotta say people saying we need to press upfield further are correct, you rarely see top teams such as Dortmund, Barca sitting back however I think this is down to the coaching staff and their tactics moreso than the players themselves.
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Post by Bestie on Nov 13, 2012 10:29:10 GMT
The way Dortmund play makes me want Klopp to be our next manager.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 11:12:51 GMT
Yeah I am a coach aswell that has coached 3 kids that are now professionals in England. Anyway I just think with a back four you just cant beat both centre halves being directly in line whrever possible. I take your point but I think our defence will be ok once the proper cover from midfield is provided. Do you think an out and out defensive midfielder is required now that we have so much attacking prowess? Dare I say it(and i hate the little cunt) but someone in the mould of masceranno? Well I guess my badges mean fuck all then, seeing as I have never coached a player to be a professional in England. Ferguson himself has said we won't have a destroyer type, and I for one definitely don't want one either. We're not the type of club to just play a marginally-talented spoiler just because he can snap into tackles. I prefer us to have footballers who can do the nasty work. I actually agree that your back four should be a solid, in-line, unit in basically every occasion. However, with our talent going the other way, I wouldn't mind us working out a system that allows as many of our good attacking threats on the pitch as possible, even if it means sacrificing defensive normalcy. Bestie you could be right. I am just saying what I think. The way football is going(with barca playing without recognised centre halves or centre forwards leaves me scratching my head sometimes.) I have actually come to dislike their style of play. I do agree in someways that we cannot stifle our team going forward just to plug holes at the back but we do need to get some sort of defensive style before CL knockout stages or we will pay in a big way. Just for the record the 3 players that I have coaced in their younger years are Kevin doyle, Noel Hunt,Robin Dempsey(18 year old kid just signed pro terms with villa about 4 months ago). Again I say it, a proper out and out covering midfield player could be the answer.
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Post by alt on Nov 13, 2012 11:49:10 GMT
Ferguson himself has said we won't have a destroyer type, and I for one definitely don't want one either. We're not the type of club to just play a marginally-talented spoiler just because he can snap into tackles. I prefer us to have footballers who can do the nasty work. Out of curiosity then, who would be your ideal signing and what midfield would we then play? When you say a destroyer, do you mean something different to a DM? If we are going to play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation, we have to use a DM. It will not work any other way, Carrick tries to play this but with his lack of mobility and Scholes as a partner it just doesn't work effectively. Every single team that plays 4-2-3-1 effectively uses and out and out holding midfielder including Dortmund.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 12:07:18 GMT
My preference would have been Javi Martinez but we got priced out of that one. There is a distinct lak of quality Midfield players available at the minute.
Thank fuck we didnt sign Nuri Sahin thats all I can say. He has been a huge disappointment for the dippers.
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Nov 13, 2012 12:26:31 GMT
De Rossi would fit like a glove, might just give us the few years service until we find one among our own ranks (Jones?) who can fill that box to box, tackler role. Essentially, a skillful tackler, or if possible, a tackling regista that is mobile enough to heave forward when needed and still be able to cover the back 4.
Whilst I'm a fan of Carrick I don't think we should be keeping him in mind so religiously, we should be looking for a partner for Clevers/Kagz/Powell/Ando even in the long term that's able to tackle, first and foremost, and also be able to play footy.
Martinez was the one for me too. If we're gambling I'd take a punt on Strootman or maybe even Wanyama if they're available for under 15 million. Both tick the boxes in terms of youth. Strootman's a natural leader, which I think we lack when Vida's out, and both are able to make some measure of a tackle. Plus, Strootman is Dutch, I'd love a Dutchie in our midfield.
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