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Post by weetomsligaments on Sept 6, 2014 4:07:39 GMT
The problem I have with the "Give him a Chance" option is: What World Class, or potential world class player should sit on the bench while Rooney runs around like a chicken with his head cut off?? The longer the new players sit, the longer it is to get them to gel together and make a run at CL and maybe even the PL Trophy. Makes more sense to me to sit him down and let the new/young players have a chance to prove what they can do, that is why the money was spent isn't it??? If only he WOULD run around like that chicken a bit more. His tendency to stand and wait and watch while the ball is on the opposite wing is just plain unacceptable. RVP is guilty of this as well. That aside, the team looked awfully good 2 seasons ago when PHC was benched. I would love to see the boy dropped and no "injury" sighted as the reason. On form, Falcao starts agead of him, Mata starts ahead of him, Van Persie starts ahead of him. Pretty simple math to me - PHC steps up and adds energy, touch, and class to his performance or he sits. |
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Post by ZlattackRed on Sept 6, 2014 5:41:17 GMT
It could have been so different. Had we gotten rid of Rooney last season Kagawa would still have been here. For me that was the straw that broke the camel's back - he caused the departure of my favorite player at the club. You might say it was Moyes' fault for buying Mata, but when you think about it, Rooney has always been a striker, this #10 shite only started happening when he became worse up front than our other options. Even my biggest grief of the summer window has been Kagawa's transfer. I like the word that you used 'caused'. Because he was one of the main reasons for his departure but the club was 'responsible' for this sort of thing to happen. Rooney was the cause, but IMO blame lies with us (the club) |
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Post by ZlattackRed on Sept 6, 2014 5:42:25 GMT
Mentioned it in another thread, but: Anyone else think LvG was having a veiled dig at Rooney when he spoke of 'commercial commitments'? Like it or not, Wayne is our most marketable player. He's United & England skipper, his wife is a darling of the day-time watching, Heat readers. Has two young sons. And kids love him. You've only got to go to a park in and around Manchester and see Rooney 10 on near enough every kid in a United kit. However, with the additions of proper World Class talent in Mata, ADM and Falcao his position as the most marketable man here. Mata is handsome young chap with a proper smart dress sense. For Mata - Read Beckham. Di Maria and Falcao will grab all the headlines with their skills and goals, and every kid likes a player with silky skills and a top notch goal-scoring record. For Di Maria - Read Ronaldo. Falcao=RvN. All players who were poster boys for our club. It may be the time, next Summer to sell Wayne off to pastures new and build around a new man. In terms of marketable faces Blind and Herrera are not much behind. And yes, Powell too, if he makes the cut |
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Post by ZlattackRed on Sept 6, 2014 5:53:04 GMT
2013/14 Prem Season 29Games 17Goals 10 assists Not bad considering the way we played last year under a new manager. I say lets wait and see how he gets on in the next couple of months before we talk of " selling him" Mate, Statistics are just like mini-skirts, they give you good ideas but hide the most important thing. You can boost your stats by scoring and assisting against smaller teams albeit under-performing most of the times. It will not help the teams cause. I understand that you are one of those few Rooney supporters/sympathizers. And believe me I respect that as there is nothing wrong. It gives other posters a different perspective to look at. Even I was a Rooney admirer for a long time. However, IMO off late, Rooney has become more of an hindrance to our team formation and our strategies tend to stagnate when he is around. I wont hold him responsible for our failings, as last year, (in the 1st half of the season) he was better than many others, but still couldn't deliver what is expected of him. That's how bad we were. He has become a jack of all, but master of none. This season, we have got plenty of specialists who will play in their natural positions, which would make Rooney a misfit in any formation we play. It will either hinder the formations or our performances, either of which will not help us. He is the type of player who cant be benched too, when fit. This leaves us with no option, but to sell him ans get specialists in much needed areas. |
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Post by smithy2 on Sept 6, 2014 5:54:29 GMT
The mods should lock this thread for now. Nothing to be gained by fellow fans arguing about this in a time where we should be excited about what the future holds. Let's move on and see what the next few games bring and then we can come bk to this.
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Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 7:12:46 GMT
Its surprising how many people rely on stats and not actual game play. Stats don't tell you about PHC's amazing athletic goal against the Bitters all those years ago. They don't give you his increasing girth and waist measurement since, and they don't measure his changing attitude on the pitch. Stats don't reflect his aimless wandering around the pitch or his failure to pick up the play. Stats are used by agents in negotiations and fantasy league games to set binary codes. We only have to recall Burnley to know how far Rooney's game has declined - in attitude, style, quality, fitness, pace, positioning, timing, passing, and pressing. And that serious lack of goals. He flatters to deceive like the USA tour, when he was all goals, whereas in his first four games (including with the national shower) against soft opposition just one penalty.
The family front, his general popularity especially with kids, and his commercial deals are also not covered in stats. The many tickets, shirts and stuff he sells must be in the millions. These factors can only be overcome by the new lads. If ADM pulls off his latest exploits in a few games he will claim the headlines. As to Falcao, he has the looks, the mop and the power plays. Already the new boys have displaced Rooney on the MUFC webpage but the same webpage records the large number of fans who Twitter Rooney into the squad against QPR.
I disagree with locking this thread. In a marketing sense, he has almost become as big as the club yet his football is dreadful. It's a bit like Beckham and his Scouse wife without their panache and his skills. After two seasons of indifferent performance its time he was placed under the spotlight for a season. We have a new squad and system; he either produces and performs or he is dropped and sold.
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Post by fletchabey on Sept 6, 2014 8:10:15 GMT
It could have been so different. Had we gotten rid of Rooney last season Kagawa would still have been here. For me that was the straw that broke the camel's back - he caused the departure of my favorite player at the club. You might say it was Moyes' fault for buying Mata, but when you think about it, Rooney has always been a striker, this #10 shite only started happening when he became worse up front than our other options. Even my biggest grief of the summer window has been Kagawa's transfer. I like the word that you used 'caused'. Because he was one of the main reasons for his departure bit the club was 'responsible' for this sort of thing to happen. Rooney was the cause, but IMO blame lies with us (the club) To paraphrase something i read elsewhere, Kagawa, the most fondly regarded player who gave us so little. I was super excited 26 months back when we signed him, but it really didn't work out. People fire off excuses but its not like all he did was a play a handful of games for us on the left wing. Or that it was the other 10 players fault. While he is certainly is talented, he always seemed to struggle, either physically or mentally. I dont see it as Rooneys fault, if anything we planned to bring Kagawa in and then Fergie licked his lips at the opportunity to sign RvP. Either we planned to have Kagawa behind Rooney, or we bought both to weaken Rooneys position at the club. Anyway, even if Kagawa had stayed and Rooney had gone, Shinji would not be much closer to being a starter. He'd have still been our third best number 10. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 8:32:04 GMT
Even my biggest grief of the summer window has been Kagawa's transfer. I like the word that you used 'caused'. Because he was one of the main reasons for his departure bit the club was 'responsible' for this sort of thing to happen. Rooney was the cause, but IMO blame lies with us (the club) To paraphrase something i read elsewhere, Kagawa, the most fondly regarded player who gave us so little. I was super excited 26 months back when we signed him, but it really didn't work out. People fire off excuses but its not like all he did was a play a handful of games for us on the left wing. Or that it was the other 10 players fault. While he is certainly is talented, he always seemed to struggle, either physically or mentally. I dont see it as Rooneys fault, if anything we planned to bring Kagawa in and then Fergie licked his lips at the opportunity to sign RvP. Either we planned to have Kagawa behind Rooney, or we bought both to weaken Rooneys position at the club. Anyway, even if Kagawa had stayed and Rooney had gone, Shinji would not be much closer to being a starter. He'd have still been our third best number 10. Agreed. As much as I think Rooney's standing is now in doubt blaming him for these "wonderful players" not performing is embarrassing really. |
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Post by fletchabey on Sept 6, 2014 8:47:25 GMT
The mods should lock this thread for now. Nothing to be gained by fellow fans arguing about this in a time where we should be excited about what the future holds. Let's move on and see what the next few games bring and then we can come bk to this. Nothing to gained by locking it, RoM has a fair contingent of people who absolutely love a moan. Once the transfer window took a dramatic upturn they needed somewhere to get their fix. hopefully this thread will be cathartic and positivity can seep around everywhere else. |
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Post by LukeWilson10 on Sept 6, 2014 9:17:32 GMT
I didn't say that. All the point I'm making is that there are a hell of a lot of 'What Ifs' that come out when you consider a Manchester United squad without an undroppable Wayne Rooney in it. I agree. But I also think players should be responsible for their own performances and as much as rooney has declined I wouldn't blame him for any of the above under performing. I think rooney will leave Manchester United in the next 18 months. I agree that his level has hit the floor and all this shite of playing him deep and as a 10 is nonsense. Rooney should be tasked with replicating Suarez's scoring tally from last season and measured accordingly. He needs to start racking up 25+ pl goals a season or else he is not paying his way. The falcao transfer is hugely significant. LVG is not happy with his strikers and that is clear. Rooneys aim is to be in that Manchester United squad, if he plays shit its the managers responsiblity to drop him should not be Rooneys to step aside. Kagawa didnt take his chances and we can only pressume that he obviosuly didnt impress in training because thats three managers who havent regulary picked him in his favoured position. If Rooney is under performing its the managers choice and decision to drop the player, if the players isnt going to get dropped you cant slate him for wanting to be in the starting 11. Danny unfortunately was not good enough to get a starting berth and Hernandez was an impact sub but didnt have the fitness to last longer. I watched him against Sunderland last year and his fitness was woeful! |
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Post by Bestie on Sept 6, 2014 9:53:52 GMT
Great personal stats those. How'd the team do, how many games did we win? So we shouldn't consider anyone's contribution last season because we finished 7th? That makes zero sense. Nope, that isn't what I said. Rooney is the alleged talisman/heartbeat/vitally important player for our side, so any of his personal contributions have to be measured alongside how those personal contributions benefitted the team. You want to measure 'contribution'? Okay, how're these: Rooney scored twenty-three goals last season. 5 of them were in games we didn't win, and those stats don't include the disgraceful fuck up away at Cardiff that cost us two points when he actually should have been selfish and scored himself but played a fucking awful pass instead. Only 4 of the twenty-three goals were against sides who finished in the top 10 of the League. Of those twenty-three goals, only 3 were against teams that finished above us - one against city (we lost 4-1) and two against Spurs (drew 2-2). He only scored 2 in the European Cup. In one game. The first group game. Are those the sorts of facts you're on about when offering up Wayne Rooney's personal contribution? Undroppable Captain and vital cog in our winning machine? Fuck me mate. Rooney is responsible for all things bad UTD? Come on. It's ridiculous. No one is responsible for their own play because Rooney ruins everything. Give me a break. Oh dear, wrong again. Or a deliberate strawman, I'm not sure. To paraphrase something i read elsewhere, Kagawa, the most fondly regarded player who gave us so little. I was super excited 26 months back when we signed him, but it really didn't work out. People fire off excuses but its not like all he did was a play a handful of games for us on the left wing. Or that it was the other 10 players fault. While he is certainly is talented, he always seemed to struggle, either physically or mentally. I dont see it as Rooneys fault, if anything we planned to bring Kagawa in and then Fergie licked his lips at the opportunity to sign RvP. Either we planned to have Kagawa behind Rooney, or we bought both to weaken Rooneys position at the club. Anyway, even if Kagawa had stayed and Rooney had gone, Shinji would not be much closer to being a starter. He'd have still been our third best number 10. Behind who? If Rooney is sold last summer, who is ahead of Kagawa as a number 10? We hadn't signed Mata yet, don't forget, and Januzaj is a winger. To paraphrase something i read elsewhere, Kagawa, the most fondly regarded player who gave us so little. I was super excited 26 months back when we signed him, but it really didn't work out. People fire off excuses but its not like all he did was a play a handful of games for us on the left wing. Or that it was the other 10 players fault. While he is certainly is talented, he always seemed to struggle, either physically or mentally. I dont see it as Rooneys fault, if anything we planned to bring Kagawa in and then Fergie licked his lips at the opportunity to sign RvP. Either we planned to have Kagawa behind Rooney, or we bought both to weaken Rooneys position at the club. Anyway, even if Kagawa had stayed and Rooney had gone, Shinji would not be much closer to being a starter. He'd have still been our third best number 10. Agreed. As much as I think Rooney's standing is now in doubt blaming him for these "wonderful players" not performing is embarrassing really. Once more, that isn't quite the point. The argument (fact? probably) is that Rooney having to play either as a striker or a 'number 10' prevented the likes of Kagawa (a natural 'pure' attacking midfielder) or Welbeck (a natural striker, not left winger) from having extended chances in those positions. As I've asked before, if we played David De Gea as a right-back, would people complain if he did not match his performances from when he played goalkeeper? Nobody would. It's an extreme example but similar situation with attacking players being played out of their proper position. Look at Scholes shunted out wide-left for England. Is it ridiculous to say Lampard and Gerrard being accomodated in the central midfield together meant Scholesy was wasted out of position? |
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Post by LukeWilson10 on Sept 6, 2014 10:10:01 GMT
Rooney isn’t playing good football at the moment and everyone knows this, it’s happened to fall at the moment he got given the captains armband. Captains armband isn’t always something you get given and you’re an instant impact. It’s a learning curve and now with the national captaincy it’s a lot of pressure. As much as you say it Rooney can’t turn down the captaincy of one of the biggest clubs in the world and also your home nation.
So to make it out its Rooney’s fault is ridiculous! People are saying he showed fight and passion in pre-season and haven’t delivered once it comes into PL, Who has?? We had an awesome pre-season with fast flowing football and tricky little passes threading through and we haven’t seen that at the start of this PL season.
Everyone loves to have a poster boy to boo at and Rooney is now that new person. A lot of people are arguing that it was him that dropped Kagawa but it wasn’t that was Ferguson, Moyes and LVG who decided that he wasn’t in their first team plans. People saying its Rooney fucking up our formations that’s untrue it’s the manager who is picking him that is ruining the formation. He doesn’t get picked he sulks (LIKE EVERY OTHER TOP PLAYER) I say top because he isn’t world class but he is a top player.
Rooney plays badly drop him but don’t start to turn on a Manchester United player because he isn’t insisting he should be dropped. We have better options now than him but if he still gets picked its LVG’s decision to pick him over RVP/Falcao and he obviously thinks that Rooney has something different to give.
Rooney plays shit and he deserves criticism but not on this scale, his in decline but at 28 year old he can still improve. Don’t turn your backs
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Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 10:12:17 GMT
So we shouldn't consider anyone's contribution last season because we finished 7th? That makes zero sense. Nope, that isn't what I said. Rooney is the alleged talisman/heartbeat/vitally important player for our side, so any of his personal contributions have to be measured alongside how those personal contributions benefitted the team. You want to measure 'contribution'? Okay, how're these: Rooney scored twenty-three goals last season. 5 of them were in games we didn't win, and those stats don't include the disgraceful fuck up away at Cardiff that cost us two points when he actually should have been selfish and scored himself but played a fucking awful pass instead. Only 4 of the twenty-three goals were against sides who finished in the top 10 of the League. Of those twenty-three goals, only 3 were against teams that finished above us - one against city (we lost 4-1) and two against Spurs (drew 2-2). He only scored 2 in the European Cup. In 1 game. The first group game. The number of trophies Rooney's contribution helped the team win last season? 0Are those the sorts of facts you're on about when offering up Wayne Rooney's personal contribution? Undroppable Captain and vital cog in our winning machine? It's ridiculous. No one is responsible for their own play because Rooney ruins everything. Give me a break. Oh dear, wrong again. Or a deliberate strawman, I'm not sure. To paraphrase something i read elsewhere, Kagawa, the most fondly regarded player who gave us so little. I was super excited 26 months back when we signed him, but it really didn't work out. People fire off excuses but its not like all he did was a play a handful of games for us on the left wing. Or that it was the other 10 players fault. While he is certainly is talented, he always seemed to struggle, either physically or mentally. I dont see it as Rooneys fault, if anything we planned to bring Kagawa in and then Fergie licked his lips at the opportunity to sign RvP. Either we planned to have Kagawa behind Rooney, or we bought both to weaken Rooneys position at the club. Anyway, even if Kagawa had stayed and Rooney had gone, Shinji would not be much closer to being a starter. He'd have still been our third best number 10. Behind who? If Rooney is sold last summer, who is ahead of Kagawa as a number 10? We hadn't signed Mata yet, don't forget, and Januzaj is a winger. Agreed. As much as I think Rooney's standing is now in doubt blaming him for these "wonderful players" not performing is embarrassing really. Once more, that isn't quite the point. The argument (fact? probably) is that Rooney having to play either as a striker or a 'number 10' prevented the likes of Kagawa (a natural 'pure' attacking midfielder) or Welbeck (a natural striker, not left winger) from having extended chances in those positions. As I've asked before, if we played David De Gea as a right-back, would people complain if he did not match his performances from when he played goalkeeper? Nobody would. It's an extreme example but similar situation with attacking players being played out of their proper position. Look at Scholes shunted out wide-left for England. Is it ridiculous to say Lampard and Gerrard being accomodated in the central midfield together meant Scholesy was wasted out of position? The number of times he squandered chances by not providing support or passing to Kagawa or Welbeck became quite something. I recall one post here at the height of last season where an analysis of Rooney and Kagawa showed almost no support all game. There were moments when Kags, Chico and Mata played some really delightful football but then Moyes dropped or changed them the following week. Rooney plays to the exclusion of everyone else which is admirable for a striker in the box but in the midfield he's a liability. |
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Post by Bestie on Sept 6, 2014 10:18:53 GMT
Rooney isn’t playing good football at the moment and everyone knows this, it’s happened to fall at the moment he got given the captains armband. Captains armband isn’t always something you get given and you’re an instant impact. It’s a learning curve and now with the national captaincy it’s a lot of pressure. As much as you say it Rooney can’t turn down the captaincy of one of the biggest clubs in the world and also your home nation. So to make it out its Rooney’s fault is ridiculous! People are saying he showed fight and passion in pre-season and haven’t delivered once it comes into PL, Who has?? We had an awesome pre-season with fast flowing football and tricky little passes threading through and we haven’t seen that at the start of this PL season. Everyone loves to have a poster boy to boo at and Rooney is now that new person. A lot of people are arguing that it was him that dropped Kagawa but it wasn’t that was Ferguson, Moyes and LVG who decided that he wasn’t in their first team plans. People saying its Rooney fucking up our formations that’s untrue it’s the manager who is picking him that is ruining the formation. He doesn’t get picked he sulks (LIKE EVERY OTHER TOP PLAYER) I say top because he isn’t world class but he is a top player. Rooney plays badly drop him but don’t start to turn on a Manchester United player because he isn’t insisting he should be dropped. We have better options now than him but if he still gets picked its LVG’s decision to pick him over RVP/Falcao and he obviously thinks that Rooney has something different to give. Rooney plays shit and he deserves criticism but not on this scale, his in decline but at 28 year old he can still improve. Don’t turn your backs |
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Post by LukeWilson10 on Sept 6, 2014 10:27:17 GMT
Rooney isn’t playing good football at the moment and everyone knows this, it’s happened to fall at the moment he got given the captains armband. Captains armband isn’t always something you get given and you’re an instant impact. It’s a learning curve and now with the national captaincy it’s a lot of pressure. As much as you say it Rooney can’t turn down the captaincy of one of the biggest clubs in the world and also your home nation. So to make it out its Rooney’s fault is ridiculous! People are saying he showed fight and passion in pre-season and haven’t delivered once it comes into PL, Who has?? We had an awesome pre-season with fast flowing football and tricky little passes threading through and we haven’t seen that at the start of this PL season. Everyone loves to have a poster boy to boo at and Rooney is now that new person. A lot of people are arguing that it was him that dropped Kagawa but it wasn’t that was Ferguson, Moyes and LVG who decided that he wasn’t in their first team plans. People saying its Rooney fucking up our formations that’s untrue it’s the manager who is picking him that is ruining the formation. He doesn’t get picked he sulks (LIKE EVERY OTHER TOP PLAYER) I say top because he isn’t world class but he is a top player. Rooney plays badly drop him but don’t start to turn on a Manchester United player because he isn’t insisting he should be dropped. We have better options now than him but if he still gets picked its LVG’s decision to pick him over RVP/Falcao and he obviously thinks that Rooney has something different to give. Rooney plays shit and he deserves criticism but not on this scale, his in decline but at 28 year old he can still improve. Don’t turn your backsThe majority of the conversations are saying that if it wasnt for Rooney, Kagawa would have been in the starting 11. If Kagawa took his chances and showed in training that he was good enough then he would have played. |
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