Vs West Ham (A) - Premier League - 2pm - 22/09/19

[alt]

Sept 23, 2019 8:16:34 GMT fergiegiveusawave said:

Sept 23, 2019 8:12:47 GMT alt said:

I don't think any criticism aimed at Lingard was based on yesterdays performance, it's the continual shite we've seen from him for the past two seasons that causes it.

I'm not talking about criticising Lingard, fire away, he's shite. I'm talking about criticising Ole for bringing him on, a bit much when he has little in the way of options.

Ah, misread it sorry

[kstandhand]

Sept 23, 2019 8:16:34 GMT fergiegiveusawave said:

Sept 23, 2019 8:12:47 GMT alt said:

I don't think any criticism aimed at Lingard was based on yesterdays performance, it's the continual shite we've seen from him for the past two seasons that causes it.

I'm not talking about criticising Lingard, fire away, he's shite. I'm talking about criticising Ole for bringing him on, a bit much when he has little in the way of options.

Given the obvious limitations of our current 1st team squad,Ole'limited ability as a manager is now being exposed for all to see.

We are seeing why he failed at Cardiff & why he was managing in Norway,he has to shoulder some of the blame for the lack of transfer business done at the club,he has said on numerous occasions, he is happy with what he has & that he choose not to invest in an obviously lacking first team squad.

We have played the entire season without a proven goal scorer,Ole decided we didn't need to sign anyone to replace Rom.

Yesterday we played the last 20 mins without any centre forward at all ,Ole choose this to be the case by sitting on his hands all summer & claiming the right players were not available.

I am firmly in the Ole out camp.

[alt]

Sept 23, 2019 8:23:52 GMT scrowford said:

5 tackles from Aaron Wan Bissaka vs West Ham FC

Can we ban this fuckwit?

[alt]

Our last away win was on February 27th and we've won 3 of the last 13 PL games. FML.

[aussiegraham]

Sept 23, 2019 8:16:34 GMT fergiegiveusawave said:

Sept 23, 2019 8:12:47 GMT alt said:

I don't think any criticism aimed at Lingard was based on yesterdays performance, it's the continual shite we've seen from him for the past two seasons that causes it.

I'm not talking about criticising Lingard, fire away, he's shite. I'm talking about criticising Ole for bringing him on, a bit much when he has little in the way of options.

My comment was more to do with the lack of choices Ole has at his disposal having been saddled with a thread bare squad and little true quality.

[redcase]

Sept 23, 2019 8:11:04 GMT alt said:

The owners and that fuckwit Ed may be the biggest problem, but, Ole is quickly becoming a big one as well. He's serving up stuff at least equal to the shite Mourinho and others did over the past few seasons. Again, it's just another diabolical choice from the board to appoint someone who's done fuck all as a manager and is expected to lead this rebuild.

Wafer-thin squad that needed more investment, but that doesn't forgive him for playing the likes of Matic, Young and Mata on a regular basis, especially after banging the youth drum so often. Add that to him seemingly not having a clue how to get the best out of the majority of these players, and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Being a club legend will help him last longer than he should, but eventually, when these sort of results continue to happen and fans get more vocal, they'll pull the trigger as they always do.

It's a never ending cycle. Each manager will have a different vision and way of playing. The cycle ends when the people who sign the cheques do so, to bring the players in who the manager wants. Currently, we've got people who do not know a jot about coaching a football team, dictating to the manager on transfers. So the manager ends up with a team he inherited, and unable to fulfill his requirements on the pitch. Mourinho got the same treatment from the board like Ole is getting now. They are completely shackled.

The first change has to be at the top.

But I agree with you, Ole does himself no favors with his team selection and tactics. Even shit players fulfill a role and a task with good coaching. Klopp has done that. Fergie did that. With a proper strategy and game plan, at least we can see the team try something on the pitch. This team is utterly clueless. I watch them and I don't know whether they like to play with possession, or on the counter, or pressing, or with the wings - nothing. This is most worrisome. Headless chickens.

[Rustin Cohle]

www.football365.com/news/damning-united-no-direction-no-plan-no-style-no-hope

Damning United: No direction, no plan, no style, no hope

SPOILER: Click to show

“It was difficult but we had to deliver against perhaps the best team in the world,” said Daniel Farke. “We have a lot of long-term injuries so it will be difficult. So we need this spirit and attitude because there will be setbacks and difficult moments and that’s when we will need our togetherness, and to remember moments like today.”

The above quote came to mind when watching Manchester United toil against West Ham. They were without Paul Pogba, Anthony Martial, Mason Greenwood and Luke Shaw. They were without hope, guidance and a semblance of direction, too, but the manager is never likely to address that in a pre-match press conference when discussing team news.

Norwich, a promoted side, had eight players sidelined when they hosted the Premier League champions. They saw their injuries not as an excuse, but as a way to strengthen their resolve and engender a greater sense of unity.

But the most poignant thing Farke mentioned in the aftermath of that sensational Manchester City result was to note that “we did it in our style”. It was no smash and grab, no backs-to-the-wall job. Norwich imposed themselves on their visitors and forced individual mistakes instead of patiently waiting for them. The identity of their absentees did not matter as each player knew their role, both as an individual and as part of an overall unit, and embraced the challenge.

Max Aarons was out, but Sam Byram was a capable replacement. With Tom Trybull unavailable, 33-year-old Alex Tettey stepped in for his first start of the season. Summer signing Ibrahim Amadou happily played out of position to accommodate the lack of Timm Klose and Christoph Zimmermann.

So Ole Gunnar Solskjaer cannot possibly use injuries to explain defeat to West Ham, nor attempt his usual trick of pretending that Manchester United created an overwhelming amount of chances they simply could not finish. His side – his management – was not good enough in isolation. As part of the wider context, it was almost unforgivable.

If Norwich can prioritise their “style” to beat considerably superior opposition in tasking circumstances, Manchester United should be embarrassed that they cannot do similar.

Of the eleven players that finished the game at the London Stadium, only two have scored more than three career Premier League goals. One was the 34-year-old left-back who conceded the decisive free-kick; the other was asked to lead the line despite his last goal or assist in all competitions coming on January 29.

This is an off-pitch aberration compounded by on-pitch failure. For all Romelu Lukaku’s flaws, for what little Alexis Sanchez offered, for how expensive a competent central midfielder would have been, those summer decisions provided such dilapidated and derelict foundations that Solskjaer’s planned rebuild was doomed from the start.

The most frustrating aspect is that such boardroom choices, while proven to be irresponsible in hindsight, were at least a result of clarified thinking. They came from a position of sensibility, as part of a wider plan to replace deadwood with grand, solid oak. These were the wrong calls made in the right way.

The appointment of Solskjaer in March was the opposite: a reactionary lurch made for short-term benefits with no real consideration of the future.

He has been promoted beyond his experience and, very possibly, his coaching acumen. That is not his fault – turning down the job would have been ludicrous, particularly then – yet that should not and does not absolve the manager of blame. He shouldered the burden of promoting Mason Greenwood to third-choice striker, which looked particularly foolish when Marcus Rashford pulled up with an apparent hamstring injury in the second half as the teenager recuperated from tonsillitis. United sold a forward for £73m and loaned another out to the same club last month, and are now ending games with Jesse Lingard and Daniel James up front.

In midfield, one injury has partnered Scott McTominay with Nemanja Matic for a midfield more pedestrianised than Norwich’s city centre. They are guarding a defence that looks less assured with each game, and supplying an attack comprised of a past-it Juan Mata and a never-quite-it Andreas Pereira.

Fred came on for the final 20 minutes, was poor and still created more chances than any of his teammates. Mata was playing about 30 seconds later than everyone else and yet no United player had more shots. Angel Gomes was given ten minutes to change the game, only because the only other alternatives were Sergio Romero, Marcos Rojo, Axel Tuanzebe and Tahith Chong.

How has it come to this? What do Manchester United stand for? This is not a team, contrary to popular belief, that favours youth more than any other in particular. They have scored as many goals this season as Manchester City did against Watford on Saturday. They have kept three clean sheets in 18 Premier League matches.

If this is a counter-attacking team, why have only four clubs had more possession per game on average? If this is a passing side, why did Declan Rice so thoroughly embarrass his two older, more experienced direct opponents? If United have a future under Solskjaer, why has a handful of injuries completely and utterly neutered them?

Therein lies much of the problem: defeats can be accepted if they are as part of a journey with an identifiable route. Fans and neutrals alike are more forgiving if they can at least see where things are headed, even if the final picture is somewhat obscured. It is not quite so easy to sell stagnation to the masses when that is the message both in the boardroom and on the pitch. West Ham have finally learned the advantages of having a clear plan – and many more words should and will be dedicated to them in the coming days.

But for now, there is a story to be told at Old Trafford. Norwich’s most expensive summer signing cost 20 times less than United’s least expensive. That only one of those sides has anything resembling a “style” is incredibly damning.

[alt]

Sept 23, 2019 9:21:17 GMT redcase said:

Sept 23, 2019 8:11:04 GMT alt said:

The owners and that fuckwit Ed may be the biggest problem, but, Ole is quickly becoming a big one as well. He's serving up stuff at least equal to the shite Mourinho and others did over the past few seasons. Again, it's just another diabolical choice from the board to appoint someone who's done fuck all as a manager and is expected to lead this rebuild.

Wafer-thin squad that needed more investment, but that doesn't forgive him for playing the likes of Matic, Young and Mata on a regular basis, especially after banging the youth drum so often. Add that to him seemingly not having a clue how to get the best out of the majority of these players, and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Being a club legend will help him last longer than he should, but eventually, when these sort of results continue to happen and fans get more vocal, they'll pull the trigger as they always do.

It's a never ending cycle. Each manager will have a different vision and way of playing. The cycle ends when the people who sign the cheques do so, to bring the players in who the manager wants. Currently, we've got people who do not know a jot about coaching a football team, dictating to the manager on transfers. So the manager ends up with a team he inherited, and unable to fulfill his requirements on the pitch. Mourinho got the same treatment from the board like Ole is getting now. They are completely shackled.

The first change has to be at the top.

But I agree with you, Ole does himself no favors with his team selection and tactics. Even shit players fulfill a role and a task with good coaching. Klopp has done that. Fergie did that. With a proper strategy and game plan, at least we can see the team try something on the pitch. This team is utterly clueless. I watch them and I don't know whether they like to play with possession, or on the counter, or pressing, or with the wings - nothing. This is most worrisome. Headless chickens

Like you, that for me is my biggest concern. Had we signed Dybala and Longstaff in the summer for example, it would have made little, to no difference at all this season. We can buy all the players we want over the next few windows, but if we haven't got someone who can coach these players to a high level, and get them playing a consistent and effective style, we're fucked either way.

[alt]

Sept 23, 2019 9:36:45 GMT Rustin Cohle said:

www.football365.com/news/damning-united-no-direction-no-plan-no-style-no-hope

Damning United: No direction, no plan, no style, no hope

SPOILER: Click to show

“It was difficult but we had to deliver against perhaps the best team in the world,” said Daniel Farke. “We have a lot of long-term injuries so it will be difficult. So we need this spirit and attitude because there will be setbacks and difficult moments and that’s when we will need our togetherness, and to remember moments like today.”

The above quote came to mind when watching Manchester United toil against West Ham. They were without Paul Pogba, Anthony Martial, Mason Greenwood and Luke Shaw. They were without hope, guidance and a semblance of direction, too, but the manager is never likely to address that in a pre-match press conference when discussing team news.

Norwich, a promoted side, had eight players sidelined when they hosted the Premier League champions. They saw their injuries not as an excuse, but as a way to strengthen their resolve and engender a greater sense of unity.

But the most poignant thing Farke mentioned in the aftermath of that sensational Manchester City result was to note that “we did it in our style”. It was no smash and grab, no backs-to-the-wall job. Norwich imposed themselves on their visitors and forced individual mistakes instead of patiently waiting for them. The identity of their absentees did not matter as each player knew their role, both as an individual and as part of an overall unit, and embraced the challenge.

Max Aarons was out, but Sam Byram was a capable replacement. With Tom Trybull unavailable, 33-year-old Alex Tettey stepped in for his first start of the season. Summer signing Ibrahim Amadou happily played out of position to accommodate the lack of Timm Klose and Christoph Zimmermann.

So Ole Gunnar Solskjaer cannot possibly use injuries to explain defeat to West Ham, nor attempt his usual trick of pretending that Manchester United created an overwhelming amount of chances they simply could not finish. His side – his management – was not good enough in isolation. As part of the wider context, it was almost unforgivable.

If Norwich can prioritise their “style” to beat considerably superior opposition in tasking circumstances, Manchester United should be embarrassed that they cannot do similar.

Of the eleven players that finished the game at the London Stadium, only two have scored more than three career Premier League goals. One was the 34-year-old left-back who conceded the decisive free-kick; the other was asked to lead the line despite his last goal or assist in all competitions coming on January 29.

This is an off-pitch aberration compounded by on-pitch failure. For all Romelu Lukaku’s flaws, for what little Alexis Sanchez offered, for how expensive a competent central midfielder would have been, those summer decisions provided such dilapidated and derelict foundations that Solskjaer’s planned rebuild was doomed from the start.

The most frustrating aspect is that such boardroom choices, while proven to be irresponsible in hindsight, were at least a result of clarified thinking. They came from a position of sensibility, as part of a wider plan to replace deadwood with grand, solid oak. These were the wrong calls made in the right way.

The appointment of Solskjaer in March was the opposite: a reactionary lurch made for short-term benefits with no real consideration of the future.

He has been promoted beyond his experience and, very possibly, his coaching acumen. That is not his fault – turning down the job would have been ludicrous, particularly then – yet that should not and does not absolve the manager of blame. He shouldered the burden of promoting Mason Greenwood to third-choice striker, which looked particularly foolish when Marcus Rashford pulled up with an apparent hamstring injury in the second half as the teenager recuperated from tonsillitis. United sold a forward for £73m and loaned another out to the same club last month, and are now ending games with Jesse Lingard and Daniel James up front.

In midfield, one injury has partnered Scott McTominay with Nemanja Matic for a midfield more pedestrianised than Norwich’s city centre. They are guarding a defence that looks less assured with each game, and supplying an attack comprised of a past-it Juan Mata and a never-quite-it Andreas Pereira.

Fred came on for the final 20 minutes, was poor and still created more chances than any of his teammates. Mata was playing about 30 seconds later than everyone else and yet no United player had more shots. Angel Gomes was given ten minutes to change the game, only because the only other alternatives were Sergio Romero, Marcos Rojo, Axel Tuanzebe and Tahith Chong.

How has it come to this? What do Manchester United stand for? This is not a team, contrary to popular belief, that favours youth more than any other in particular. They have scored as many goals this season as Manchester City did against Watford on Saturday. They have kept three clean sheets in 18 Premier League matches.

If this is a counter-attacking team, why have only four clubs had more possession per game on average? If this is a passing side, why did Declan Rice so thoroughly embarrass his two older, more experienced direct opponents? If United have a future under Solskjaer, why has a handful of injuries completely and utterly neutered them?

Therein lies much of the problem: defeats can be accepted if they are as part of a journey with an identifiable route. Fans and neutrals alike are more forgiving if they can at least see where things are headed, even if the final picture is somewhat obscured. It is not quite so easy to sell stagnation to the masses when that is the message both in the boardroom and on the pitch. West Ham have finally learned the advantages of having a clear plan – and many more words should and will be dedicated to them in the coming days.

But for now, there is a story to be told at Old Trafford. Norwich’s most expensive summer signing cost 20 times less than United’s least expensive. That only one of those sides has anything resembling a “style” is incredibly damning.

Damning but depressingly accurate.

[Deleted]

It confusing the hell out of me how far we've dropped since that Wolves first half. First 1 1/2 games we looked really good. Pressed high with energy and aggression. It was like the Wolves equaliser knocked the stuffing out of the side and they haven't recovered. Which is a sad indictment of the mentality of the squad.

Since then we've played in a multitude of styles, none of them well.

[.]

Sept 23, 2019 8:35:43 GMT alt said:

Our last away win was on February 27th and we've won 3 of the last 13 PL games. FML.

5 wins, 4 draws and 10 losses since Paris.

I'm not in the Ole out camp at the moment, but if they're not sackable stats I don't know what are to be honest and that's being fair to him!

I fully understand why some want Ole out. It's more to do with the hierarchy imo, but surely there has to be some sense of direction or vision.

It's not there in any way, shape or form regardless of what Ole said to sky after the game- what he's intending to achieve. Don't see it.

[caino]

Glad I didn’t plan my Sunday around this game. Sucked the life out of me once again. Totally pathetic from everyone at the club

[redcase]

Sept 23, 2019 9:53:51 GMT fergiegiveusawave said:

It confusing the hell out of me how far we've dropped since that Wolves first half. First 1 1/2 games we looked really good. Pressed high with energy and aggression. It was like the Wolves equaliser knocked the stuffing out of the side and they haven't recovered. Which is a sad indictment of the mentality of the squad.

Since then we've played in a multitude of styles, none of them well.

Yes. Ole still does not know what this group of players does well. There needs to be an ideology implanted into this squad by him, and that has not happened.

Arsenal were languishing under Gazidis for more than a decade. Their fans were vocal and made themselves get noticed by the media all over the world. Gazidis had to leave. Now they've got a decent manager, some good signings. I mean, when did Arsenal last come back from a man down and 2 goals down and win??!

[redcase]

Is Simon Stone a Woodward mouthpiece now?

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2019 11:27:39 GMT redcase said:

Sept 23, 2019 9:53:51 GMT fergiegiveusawave said:

It confusing the hell out of me how far we've dropped since that Wolves first half. First 1 1/2 games we looked really good. Pressed high with energy and aggression. It was like the Wolves equaliser knocked the stuffing out of the side and they haven't recovered. Which is a sad indictment of the mentality of the squad.

Since then we've played in a multitude of styles, none of them well.

Yes. Ole still does not know what this group of players does well. There needs to be an ideology implanted into this squad by him, and that has not happened.

Arsenal were languishing under Gazidis for more than a decade. Their fans were vocal and made themselves get noticed by the media all over the world. Gazidis had to leave. Now they've got a decent manager, some good signings. I mean, when did Arsenal last come back from a man down and 2 goals down and win??!

I think first and foremost we lack creativity above all else. We lost 2-0 yesterday but had decent possession and in decent areas but absolutely nothing in the way of creativity. He needs to push Pogba up and have 2 with plenty of mobility and aggression in behind him, McTominay and Fred the obvious choices. Only problem with this is if he's looking to still go with a high press, Pogba as a 10 will have to work his ass off as well, which he can't always be trusted to do, although he did start the season looking more committed (like that's something to praise, should be a fucking bare minimum!!)

When all forwards are fit we have good players for that system. Rashford and James out wide will run and chase all day.

Problem is the squad is so threadbare that when we have 1 or 2 injuries it all unravels and we're fucked. I think a lot of problems can be pointed at the squad. To implement a system you need players on the bench who can come in and do the same job as the players out there. We can't do that, we're replacing our quick and energetic players with Matic and Mata, who are the complete opposite.

Now I agree that Ole needs to solve some problems himself. Matic doesn't belong anywhere near this lineup anymore, Fred is perfect for the way he wants to play, whether he's good enough is another matter but he's at least the style of player you want to see in there. Then he's also got to solve this creativity problem without playing Mata or Lingard at #10, Pogba is the obvious answer here, he's no use deep when we're crying out for creativity. Also think he needs to get the full backs playing further up, you notice everytime they're on the ball they're running at defenders rather that in behind them.

De Gea

AWB       Lindelof        Maguire       Shaw

Fred     McTominay

Pogba

Rashford/James     Martial     James/Rashford

This is the only way forward for me when everyone is fit. Means little because obviously players will pick up injuries throughout the season and shite will come in to replace them but it's a good starting point.