|
Post by Karma on Jul 14, 2020 11:46:06 GMT
Last season before we played Burnley at home during that good run a win would have moved us into the top 4.
Remember the score , it ended 2-2
We got a last minute penalty to secure that.
De ja vu.
We underestimated them too.
|
|
|
Post by kstandhand on Jul 14, 2020 11:51:47 GMT
But ... Ole's in-game management is consistently shit. Both that and the players mostly being sackless Tottenham-lites can be true at the same time. How is it though? There isn't exactly a wealth of talent sat on the bench to change things around. What more do you want him to do? Actually get on the pitch and do the players jobs? If Dave or Pogba had just leathered it down field early on we wouldn't have gone a goal down. And if Dave actually tried commanding his box and/or came for a few crosses, along with Lindelof learning how to mark and AWB & Maguire not marking each other (along with Martial and Rashford taking one of their other chances) we would have won comfortably. There's a lot there that most would agree with you on,I do & in my view there are so many issues that it can only point to one thing..the manager.
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Jul 14, 2020 11:56:39 GMT
But ... Ole's in-game management is consistently shit. Both that and the players mostly being sackless Tottenham-lites can be true at the same time. How is it though? There isn't exactly a wealth of talent sat on the bench to change things around. What more do you want him to do? Actually get on the pitch and do the players jobs? If Dave or Pogba had just leathered it down field early on we wouldn't have gone a goal down. And if Dave actually tried commanding his box and/or came for a few crosses, along with Lindelof learning how to mark and AWB & Maguire not marking each other (along with Martial and Rashford taking one of their other chances) we would have won comfortably. Because Southampton didn't take the lead through an isolated mistake and they didn't score the equaliser as a sucker punch against the run of play. We were second-best throughout. When the players aren't doing it the manager has to take responsibility and do something. Ole generally doesn't/hasn't learned that trick yet.
|
|
|
Post by kstandhand on Jul 14, 2020 11:58:38 GMT
How is it though? There isn't exactly a wealth of talent sat on the bench to change things around. What more do you want him to do? Actually get on the pitch and do the players jobs? If Dave or Pogba had just leathered it down field early on we wouldn't have gone a goal down. And if Dave actually tried commanding his box and/or came for a few crosses, along with Lindelof learning how to mark and AWB & Maguire not marking each other (along with Martial and Rashford taking one of their other chances) we would have won comfortably. Because Southampton didn't take the lead through an isolated mistake and they didn't score the equaliser as a sucker punch against the run of play. We were second-best throughout. When the players aren't doing it the manager has to take responsibility. Ole generally doesn't/hasn't learned that trick yet. There is only so far the happy go lucky,DNA,family thing will get him.
|
|
|
Post by GeniusCantona on Jul 14, 2020 11:59:33 GMT
Like some I blamed Lindelof for that set piece calamity but what in the hell was Maguire doing!? De Gea also at fault. It was just a disaster all around.
This draw hit hard based on all the good vibes going into this game but we still control our fate. I think Palace and West Ham will be tough, they always raise their game against us, but win these 2 and we’re probably 4th going into our last game with Leicester.
|
|
|
Post by ScholesEvilTwin on Jul 14, 2020 12:01:45 GMT
How is it though? There isn't exactly a wealth of talent sat on the bench to change things around. What more do you want him to do? Actually get on the pitch and do the players jobs? If Dave or Pogba had just leathered it down field early on we wouldn't have gone a goal down. And if Dave actually tried commanding his box and/or came for a few crosses, along with Lindelof learning how to mark and AWB & Maguire not marking each other (along with Martial and Rashford taking one of their other chances) we would have won comfortably. Because Southampton didn't take the lead through an isolated mistake and they didn't score the equaliser as a sucker punch against the run of play. We were second-best throughout. When the players aren't doing it the manager has to take responsibility and do something. Ole generally doesn't/hasn't learned that trick yet. Ok
|
|
|
Post by Karma on Jul 14, 2020 12:02:15 GMT
Like some I blamed Lindelof for that set piece calamity but what in the hell was Maguire doing!? De Gea also at fault. It was just a disaster all around. This draw hit hard based on all the good vibes going into this game but we still control our fate. I think Palace and West Ham will give us a tough, they always raise their game against us, but win these 2 and we’re probably 4th going into our last game with Leicester. Lindelof had a good game and surprisingly Shaw. That goal was coming. It shouldn’t have been a surprise to anyone what happened.
|
|
|
Post by RAZ on Jul 14, 2020 12:10:25 GMT
You forgot one thing. 3 of them are the reason we're still in the race plus the 4th reason is ourselves who went on a run since January. People seem to forget that this run didn't start after the lockdown but actually started 7 months ago with a depleted squad full of injuries to our best players. No other manager got this kind of pass? Interesting how the others had a couple of full seasons while he hasn't even finished his first one. If you like comparing all those managers why don't you actually try to bring the comparisons to the same level? As I said earlier, he might not be the man. But you don't just sack the moment it actually looks like some things are finally coming together. What kind of logic is that Every other manager after Fergie was sacked if they didn’t get CL football. Last season he got a pass because he was hired in December. Why can’t we just admit we’re lowering the bar for iffs and maybe’s? Instead of dressing it up as something else? in reality we all have to admit that united have fallen so far behind, that this mess wont be fixed over night. this might have been possible straight after moyes with the right appointment. since then we have fallen even further behind under 2 world class managers. i dont have the naivety and belief anymore that tomorrow we can be back at the top. we are not a barca or real right now, who adress their problems straight after a bad season. our board failed to become active for 7 years while watching the downfall. this comparison might not be accurate but rather than a bad barca or real for a season or two, we are probably closer to ac milan, although still not as bad, yet. milan wont recover over night and so wont we. the squad and the transfers have been a catastrophe for something like 6 years. completely depleted, robbed of confidence and belief. when ole came in he talked about many players who wont be here any longer. well, thats actually what he did so far, getting rid of deadwood. now, i`m sure he wanted this to be fixed even quicker and there are still players he doesnt want. but we all know who we can blame for that. same goes for transfers. he bought some players who improved us and i guess he wanted more but couldnt get them due to our beautiful yanks up there. it looks like he knows what the club and the squad should look like. i`m not defending ole because its ole. sure, its a romantic idea to get back to the top under a club legend. but that romanticism can suck my balls if it doesnt work. i try to judge him by what i see and also comparing it to jose and van gaal. and i cant remember many moments where i enjoyed watching united as much as the last 6-7 months since sir alex left. ole looked like he lost it in the first half of the season but since then we have seen a different united side. still not the one we all expect and want but one that for the first time looks like its moving forward (despite tripping over some stones every now and then). i think you mentioned earlier that a sancho wont make up for the gap between us and liverpool and city. and i completely agree. the main problem is not our starting 11 (although it could be better in some positions) but the squad depth. do i expect us to challenge for the title next season? well i want to. but looking at how we operate in the transfer market i`m not gonna get my hopes up high. get 2-3 good players in, get rid of more deadwood and i want us to challenge for the cups and reduce the gap to the other two sides significantly, maybe being up there with them right until the end. no, thats also not enough but this club has been in such a terrible state, that we need to build it up again. if a tsunami destroys your house you wont have your house back in two days, you`ll have to rebuild it eventually which unfortunately (and i know we all hate hearing that) takes time. if a robber breaks your door and two windows you might be able to fix it the next day. well i think we are more a case of being struck by a fucking tsunami (sir alex leaving and having the glazers in charge). liverpool finished 8th after klopp came in mid season. then they finished 4th two times in a row. but you could see something was happening there. only from the 18/19 season onwards it truly looked like those cunts are about to be back. but small improvements where there from his first full season while they still fucked it up in between. guardiola finished 3rd in his first full season and won it two times in a row after that while having money to throw out of the window and being allowed to get rid of whoever he wanted. still took him a whole season and then also because all the other teams went to shit that same year, not challenging city at all (pretty much like liverpool this year). dont get me wrong, i am not comparing ole to guardiola or klopp. he is and probably will never be in the same league as those two managers. but 2020 has been a huge improvement compared to what we had before. its not the massive improvement we all want but its very obvious and clear to see. he is making a lot of mistakes, far from perfect management. but he found a way that his prefered starting 11 actually plays attractive football for most of the times. its a very inexperienced and young team who will make those mistakes like last night, same as him. but for the first time it looks like the team and the manager are pulling the same strings. just as he said recently after the villa game, that its what united should look like anyway and that we should have won some games by even more goals and that we havent achieved anything yet. he understands that all those wins recently are what we are supposed to do anyway and is not getting carried away. you know, thats what i want to hear. he doesnt seem happy at all and neither do the players from the looks of it. that at least is a change in mentality. again, i dont back him because its ole, couldnt give a shit about that. i back him at the moment, because i can finally see some positives. and to replace him this summer would bring down that house yet again, when it finally looked like its moving towards being a house, i admit slowly but still better than not at all. i didnt want him sacked in december/january (although it was hard to defend him). but it still would have been a better time than this summer. after what we have seen from united since bruno came in and the return of injured players, this is by far the worst time for a manager change. no guarantee that we have turned the corner but a blind man can see that something happened and changed. and most of the changes since then have been good, outweighing the bad ones. we can still finish the season in the top 4 and maybe with a cup or two in our hands, thanks to the other teams fucking up but also thanks to ourselves finally getting better. lets see how much support he gets in the summer (i dont expect much from those cunts in charge) and lets watch if next season we keep on doing what we have been doing in the last months, which is winning most games, scoring for fun and looking like an entertaining side, for most of the time. if that happens, good, we are moving forward. if we look like the united from the first half of this season, after the next transfer window, then we can justify the talks about replacing him with someone else. right now it would be plain stupid to start from scratch after the biggest positives in 7 years. sorry for the long post.
|
|
|
Post by bobbins, again for some reason on Jul 14, 2020 12:25:29 GMT
I agree I don’t know what Maguire was doing, but looking at the goal again Lindelof nearly hooks it into the net. I thought last night it was possibly an own goal, don’t think it is but it’s pretty calamitous all the same (including Spanish Dave staying rooted). Just concentration levels going to the dogs in added on time. Also I’m wondering how aware we really are of Obafemi at the back stick? Really infuriating stuff seeing it again.
|
|
|
Post by RAZ on Jul 14, 2020 12:27:12 GMT
also: last night showed how fucking stupid it would be if they really want to keep this new system of subs for the next season. IIRC we made 4 out of 5 subs by the time williams got injured, so we should have been able to replace an injured player with a fresh one.
|
|
|
Post by Karma on Jul 14, 2020 12:30:48 GMT
For me he has to win a trophy. Even Van Gaal managed that despite finishing 5th on goal difference. Who was very unlucky when you think about it. We’ve beaten both Chelsea and City convincingly this season already , we can do it again. If we blow a trophy now it would be a very Spursy thing to do imo. I know cups are a lottery but they also provide a good platform for the future. I agree with much of what you say Raz but there’s so much there for me to know what to pick out. 🤣🤣
|
|
|
Post by Rustin Cohle on Jul 14, 2020 12:43:37 GMT
The players aren't good enough. The manager isn't good enough. Both can be true at once, and both have been for most of the past decade.
I understand why people are reticent to blame Ole for not using his subs well when half his bench is dross. I've said already I think he should have brought on McTominay and Fred at HT, but I understand where that defence is coming from.
But the best managers get more out of average players. Look at Hasenhuttl - Southampton have maybe two or three players that we'd take for our squad, and yet they played with purpose for the whole game despite having nothing to play for other than pride. Not saying he's the man for us, but he has given a very average group of players a solid gameplan that leads to them punching above their weight. Remember, when he was appointed in December 2018 they were 18th and looked utter dogshit.
The past few weeks we've looked like we have a plan outside of countering for the first time in Ole's reign, but as soon as that plan faced a decent press - something half the teams in the league can do - it stumbled. That suggests it wasn't much of a plan beyond just letting good players play - something that can be useful to squash shit teams, but not a long-term plan for a team of our stature. Ole may not have all the pieces required, but has he really shown the ability to get something more out of what he has? To forge a system that is something more than its whole? He's done it in some individual games vs. big teams, huge credit to him for that (and he doesn't get enough for it), but we need a consistent, strong system that can work against any team and doesn't fall apart as soon as a team tries to counteract it instead of either playing into our gameplan or being too shit to stop us.
That twat Klopp turned Jordan fucking Henderson into the second favourite for the PFA Player of the Year award. Now he obviously doesn't deserve that status, but if Klopp can take that level of mediocrity and turn it into a fairly important cog in a CL and PL winning team, that's the level we need.
All this said - the season is far from over. We have more to play for than any other team. Fifth and no cups is a mile away from third and two major trophies - both feel distinctly possible right now.
|
|
|
Post by RAZ on Jul 14, 2020 12:46:19 GMT
i think there are so many negatives that we cant ignore them and rightly so. but we should also pick out some of the positives. we have the 2nd best record in the league against the top teams. our problem until a while ago was winning the "easy" games, often those games are the ones winning you the league not necessarily having the best record against your rivals over the course of a season. we finally started winning most of those games as well, obviously we will never win all of them. but right now we seem to be good against the big sides and also doing our job in most games against the weaker teams. we have also shown another good aspect since the restart. falling behind against bournemouth and southampton and just coming back and not breaking apart. we struggled for 30mins against villa, got a lucky call but took control from there. we are far from perfect but lets not overlook certain improvements we are making, its a matter of can we make those improvements permanent. i`d like to see how we do next season with a couple of good transfers and selling shit like andreas, lingard, jones, rojo etc. because if we manage to combine those two factors next season from the start without the huge gap in points we have right now, we might just close the gap by a huge margin.
i agree with some in here that we are overreacting after last night. it hurts, it feels like a loss and we all are rightly pissed and angry. but it was a matter of time before we have a game where we fuck up, unfortunately it came at the wrong moment. we have to move on from the game yesterday. no time to whine and question everything now, we have a job to finish that is still in our own hands. we can only blame ourselves for the southampton result but we need to move on as the next game is in 2 days. they should get some rest today, come back tomorrow, train and analyze the mistakes but dont dwell, just go into the palace game with the same mindset we had in previous weeks.
|
|
|
Post by ratbag on Jul 14, 2020 12:47:33 GMT
I am as frustrated and pissed off as anyone following last night's result and particularly the way it happened...
BUT I have to say that we have been pretty decent to watch recently and that is down to both Ole and the players seeming to find a system and style of play that looks attractive and works...so Ole gets a little slack for that but if we come out if this season potless and out of the top 4 then we seriously need to look at replacing him...
Having said all that, I watched the Spurs game the other night and I am thanking my lucky starts that Jose has gone...the style of play stinks and reminds me why I started skipping watching our matches...
|
|
|
Post by RAZ on Jul 14, 2020 12:52:54 GMT
I am as frustrated and pissed off as anyone following last night's result and particularly the way it happened... BUT I have to say that we have been pretty decent to watch recently and that is down to both Ole and the players seeming to find a system and style of play that looks attractive and works...so Ole gets a little slack for that but if we come out if this season potless and out of the top 4 then we seriously need to look at replacing him... Having said all that, I watched the Spurs game the other night and I am thanking my lucky starts that Jose has gone...the style of play stinks and reminds me why I started skipping watching our matches...i still love jose as a manager and his personality. unfortunately it seems like time has moved forward quicker than himself as a manager and i dont think he will recover. but watching his spurs side in recent games, reminded me of his last months with united. as much as i like him, he had to leave and it was the right call and right now i can at least enjoy watching us recently. what i`m struggling with is, to understand how this all happened to jose. that man is highly intelligent and smart, one of the greatest tacticians in the history of football. i dont understand how he has fallen so far behind. one or two bad seasons...fair enough. but looking like a dinosaur after having been one of the best and innovative ever is just painful to watch and so weird.
|
|