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Post by Carbon on Feb 10, 2021 11:53:44 GMT
Our next four games are West Brom (A), Sociedad (A), Newcastle (H), Sociedad (H). Van de Beek should be playing in all four of them in the role Pogba had before his injury. Absolutely no need for both McTominay and Fred to be starting the PL games at least, but even if they do then Donny could and should still play the Pogba role in the midfield diamond that has brought us some good results this season. A run of five starts in a row would give a much better opportunity to judge what he can offer for the remainder of this season.
I'd be very tempted to leave Fred out for a bit
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 10, 2021 12:20:43 GMT
So players underperforming is the manager's fault but he can't claim any credit for those performing well? Sounds fair.
I would like to see Van de Beek in a lineup with Fernandes instead of him being a replacement too but why would Ole give him a run of games if he doesn't trust him to perform at the minute? Also, talk of not needing McTominay and Fred in the same lineup against these teams confuses me, like it makes us too defensive. McTominay is banging in goals left right and centre and scored the winner yesterday, contributing more in an attacking sense than Van de Beek did all game yet he's included amongst the players who may hinder our ability to play attacking football.
Neither he or Fred are defensive midfielders while we're at it either, they're both more box-to-box, especially McTominay. The only true holding midfielder we have is Matic.
Wherever Van de Beek's best position is, he's still supposed to be a creative player. I'd expect him to have much more of an impact than he has been doing no matter where he's played, whether it be as a #6 or a #10. Greenwood is playing as a right winger, Pogba has shown some good form despite playing essentially on the left at times, why can't we expect VDB to show more in a position which really isn't that alien to him?
Should definitely get another start or two over those coming games but he can't be continually absolved of wrongdoing in his lack of form. He has to show more wherever he plays.
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Post by Kojak on Feb 10, 2021 12:25:23 GMT
He makes runs into spaces where he can’t be found with the ball. I’m sure he’s a better player than we’ve seen, but sooner or later he has to make an impact. Mata barely plays but when he does he contributes more than Donny has in his cameos. I think sometimes you become a better player by not playing. The way people were talking online about “unleashing” him after the Pogba injury was laughable really. I hope he comes good next season and we start to see a bit more of what he’s about. Players become a worse player when only given sporadic appearances and the expectation of directly replacing the only talisman. Van de Beek isn't a Fernandes type. He's more of a Xavi or a Modric. Knits the attack with quick thinking and clever movement. He doesn't play enough and when he does we're asking him to play the wrong way. I'm starting to wonder if we just aren't a club for that sort of player. Veron never really shone, Berbatov could never really fit, Kagawa certainly didn't and we basically killed his career, we have completely wasted Mata. Great shout on those type of players coming in and struggling. The Kagawa one was mad, because Fergie never really played with that type of number 10. All high quality players in their own right though.
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Banky
United Youth Teamer
RoM Prediction League Champion 2017-18
Posts: 68
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Post by Banky on Feb 10, 2021 12:32:23 GMT
People need to stop looking at Donny as an understudy to Bruno, he's a completely different player. We can't just keep sticking him on when Bruno needs a rest and say " yeah, just do what Fernandes usually does".
He needs to play with Bruno not instead of him. Sit Fred out for the next few games and tell him to go out and express himself, and don't be afraid to make mistakes.
Look how many times Bruno loses the ball in a match, it's loads, he doesn't care and neither does anyone else because he's trying things and when it comes off it makes things happen.
There's a great player in Donny if we trust him a bit more.
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 10, 2021 12:34:15 GMT
Van de Beek isn't even showing glimpses of quality though. Berbatov was criminally underrated and Kagawa, Mata showed enough that you can easily come to the conclusion with them that we wasted them. VDB is literally showing nothing, the games are passing him by.
I don't like shitting on young players. Seen him play plenty for Ajax and know he has quality. We all know how tough it can be to adjust to English football too, so I'm not saying the guy is done here and has no future but he gives no confidence that he's going to find something before the end of this season.
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Post by Paul on Feb 10, 2021 12:42:48 GMT
Our next four games are West Brom (A), Sociedad (A), Newcastle (H), Sociedad (H). Van de Beek should be playing in all four of them in the role Pogba had before his injury. Absolutely no need for both McTominay and Fred to be starting the PL games at least, but even if they do then Donny could and should still play the Pogba role in the midfield diamond that has brought us some good results this season. A run of five starts in a row would give a much better opportunity to judge what he can offer for the remainder of this season. Considering he's more competition for Pogba and him being out injured he'd get a run of games. The shit hes getting so far today is pathetic on social media. But then I expect nothing less from a section of our own fans. Fucking whining about anything and everything. He needs a run of games and with Pogba being out its a perfect opportunity. He looked broken when he came off last night, feel for the lad as his confidence canr be great at the moment.
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Post by redcase on Feb 10, 2021 13:01:03 GMT
People need to stop looking at Donny as an understudy to Bruno, he's a completely different player. We can't just keep sticking him on when Bruno needs a rest and say " yeah, just do what Fernandes usually does". He needs to play with Bruno not instead of him. Sit Fred out for the next few games and tell him to go out and express himself, and don't be afraid to make mistakes. Look how many times Bruno loses the ball in a match, it's loads, he doesn't care and neither does anyone else because he's trying things and when it comes off it makes things happen. There's a great player in Donny if we trust him a bit more. Again, this absolutely.
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Post by GeniusCantona on Feb 10, 2021 13:28:50 GMT
VDB is a technically gifted and talented footballer more so than Fred or McT. The social media mob want to draw conclusions already despite Ole misusing him and failing to put him in positions to succeed. I can go back to messages to the beginning of the season where many of us were dumbfounded as to why Ole was not trying a combination of Bruno, VDB and Fred. Ole likes to draw on history then he should know better, a true United team doesn’t play with two holding/defensive midfielders at home against subpar competition.
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Post by redcase on Feb 10, 2021 13:33:37 GMT
So players underperforming is the manager's fault but he can't claim any credit for those performing well? Sounds fair. I would like to see Van de Beek in a lineup with Fernandes instead of him being a replacement too but why would Ole give him a run of games if he doesn't trust him to perform at the minute? Also, talk of not needing McTominay and Fred in the same lineup against these teams confuses me, like it makes us too defensive. McTominay is banging in goals left right and centre and scored the winner yesterday, contributing more in an attacking sense than Van de Beek did all game yet he's included amongst the players who may hinder our ability to play attacking football.
Neither he or Fred are defensive midfielders while we're at it either, they're both more box-to-box, especially McTominay. The only true holding midfielder we have is Matic. Wherever Van de Beek's best position is, he's still supposed to be a creative player. I'd expect him to have much more of an impact than he has been doing no matter where he's played, whether it be as a #6 or a #10. Greenwood is playing as a right winger, Pogba has shown some good form despite playing essentially on the left at times, why can't we expect VDB to show more in a position which really isn't that alien to him? Should definitely get another start or two over those coming games but he can't be continually absolved of wrongdoing in his lack of form. He has to show more wherever he plays. To be fair, McT had some poor games for us, yet he got starts for us continually and that's the reason imo he has thrived. The confidence shown in him by the manager has helped him to go from stride to stride. Van de Beek needs that same consistent run of games.
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Feb 10, 2021 13:42:04 GMT
Prefer lockdown TBH.
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 10, 2021 13:50:08 GMT
So players underperforming is the manager's fault but he can't claim any credit for those performing well? Sounds fair. I would like to see Van de Beek in a lineup with Fernandes instead of him being a replacement too but why would Ole give him a run of games if he doesn't trust him to perform at the minute? Also, talk of not needing McTominay and Fred in the same lineup against these teams confuses me, like it makes us too defensive. McTominay is banging in goals left right and centre and scored the winner yesterday, contributing more in an attacking sense than Van de Beek did all game yet he's included amongst the players who may hinder our ability to play attacking football.
Neither he or Fred are defensive midfielders while we're at it either, they're both more box-to-box, especially McTominay. The only true holding midfielder we have is Matic. Wherever Van de Beek's best position is, he's still supposed to be a creative player. I'd expect him to have much more of an impact than he has been doing no matter where he's played, whether it be as a #6 or a #10. Greenwood is playing as a right winger, Pogba has shown some good form despite playing essentially on the left at times, why can't we expect VDB to show more in a position which really isn't that alien to him? Should definitely get another start or two over those coming games but he can't be continually absolved of wrongdoing in his lack of form. He has to show more wherever he plays. To be fair, McT had some poor games for us, yet he got starts for us continually and that's the reason imo he has thrived. The confidence shown in him by the manager has helped him to go from stride to stride. Van de Beek needs that same consistent run of games. He has but he hasn't been a constant starter throughout his time. He's been in and out of the team. Even this season he's only started 14 of 23 league games. For every bad game at the start he had a good game which is why he kept getting picked and I'd argue he never went missing in games even when he was poor. Now he starts more often than not because he's become one of our most important players. At the minute all I'm seeing from VDB is underwhelming performance after underwhelming performance, which is why I think it's difficult to say yeah give him a 5 game run of starts. I think he should obviously still get chances and I'm not going to pretend that Ole handled him well at the start of the season but I don't think we can throw all the criticism for his performances at that, the player himself needs the character to say "Fuck you Ole, I'll show you why you should've been playing me more."
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Post by troubleontheway on Feb 10, 2021 13:50:37 GMT
Yep. This government's COVID fighting 'plan' is still more believable than Moyes ever was as a Utd manager.
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 10, 2021 13:55:42 GMT
I think the Van de Beek situation can be summed up very simply.
Should Ole have handled him better this season? Yes
Should Donny be showing more when he does play, regardless of said handling? Yes
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Post by Bestie on Feb 10, 2021 14:05:52 GMT
So players underperforming is the manager's fault but he can't claim any credit for those performing well? Sounds fair. 1. Don't think anybody has said that. 2. Which players are out-performing themselves so brilliantly that Ole isn't getting credit for? McTominay? He is basking in a little purple patch of goal-scoring form. I would like to see Van de Beek in a lineup with Fernandes instead of him being a replacement too but why would Ole give him a run of games if he doesn't trust him to perform at the minute? How is a player supposed to earn trust if they are never played, or when they do play are expected to directly replace the best player at the club? Also, talk of not needing McTominay and Fred in the same lineup against these teams confuses me, like it makes us too defensive. McTominay is banging in goals left right and centre and scored the winner yesterday, contributing more in an attacking sense than Van de Beek did all game yet he's included amongst the players who may hinder our ability to play attacking football. Neither he or Fred are defensive midfielders while we're at it either, they're both more box-to-box, especially McTominay. The only true holding midfielder we have is Matic. Seems people are talking about only needing one of McTom or Fred. Not simply dropping McTominay. And whether they are out and out DMs is pretty irrelevant when their instructions are clearly to primarily be the two in front of the defence. As that article says, McTominay's goal last night is exactly the sort of goal, from the exact sort of position/role, that van de Beek was getting for Ajax. Wherever Van de Beek's best position is, he's still supposed to be a creative player. I'd expect him to have much more of an impact than he has been doing no matter where he's played, whether it be as a #6 or a #10. Greenwood is playing as a right winger, Pogba has shown some good form despite playing essentially on the left at times, why can't we expect VDB to show more in a position which really isn't that alien to him? It isn't really the position he has been played in but the expected role. He is not going to be a Fernandes replacement. Same way if you asked de Bruyne to play left back he probably isn't going to look as good a player as we know he is.
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 10, 2021 14:38:39 GMT
So players underperforming is the manager's fault but he can't claim any credit for those performing well? Sounds fair. 1. Don't think anybody has said that. 2. Which players are out-performing themselves so brilliantly that Ole isn't getting credit for? McTominay? He is basking in a little purple patch of goal-scoring form. Try and mention anything on here that the manager might've handled the likes of McTominay, Shaw, Fred well and it's met with people trying to find any kind of reason why the manager isn't responsible for any of it. Yet we're supposed to accept that VDB can't be blamed for his form because... Ole.I would like to see Van de Beek in a lineup with Fernandes instead of him being a replacement too but why would Ole give him a run of games if he doesn't trust him to perform at the minute? How is a player supposed to earn trust if they are never played, or when they do play are expected to directly replace the best player at the club? It was only a few weeks ago that people on here where literally saying why aren't we resting Bruno more when he have a ready made replacement in VDB on the bench. Now it's "How can we expect him to replicate Bruno?". I actually agree, said as much at the time. But I'm not expecting him to replicate Bruno I'm just expecting him to show something, anything! Instead he just goes completely missing.Also, talk of not needing McTominay and Fred in the same lineup against these teams confuses me, like it makes us too defensive. McTominay is banging in goals left right and centre and scored the winner yesterday, contributing more in an attacking sense than Van de Beek did all game yet he's included amongst the players who may hinder our ability to play attacking football. Neither he or Fred are defensive midfielders while we're at it either, they're both more box-to-box, especially McTominay. The only true holding midfielder we have is Matic. Seems people are talking about only needing one of McTom or Fred. Not simply dropping McTominay. And whether they are out and out DMs is pretty irrelevant when their instructions are clearly to primarily be the two in front of the defence. As that article says, McTominay's goal last night is exactly the sort of goal, from the exact sort of position/role, that van de Beek was getting for Ajax. I suppose my point is that I'm far more confident with those two players, who are still performing well, in the team at the moment. I think it does matter whether they're out and out DMs as that's what everyone says whenever they start together to try and make a point the manager is being negative. Neither are DMs. McTominay is turning into an all action box-to-box player. Presses from the front, defends at the back and is now scoring goals. I find the job Fred does to be criminally underrated. Provides energy and bite in that midfield but think he's actually a much better passer than people give him credit for, does that neat and tidy stuff that people are talking about with VDB very well.
I do want to see VDB used slightly deeper in the same lineup as Bruno but don't think we should be handing him a 5 match starting streak to try and find some form when we've got two guys in there at the minute playing well. Not least because it's probably not the time of the season to be throwing a player lacking confidence into that type of situation. He needs more starts, should definitely start the first leg Vs Sociedad, hopefully as part of a two in midfield with Bruno in front.Wherever Van de Beek's best position is, he's still supposed to be a creative player. I'd expect him to have much more of an impact than he has been doing no matter where he's played, whether it be as a #6 or a #10. Greenwood is playing as a right winger, Pogba has shown some good form despite playing essentially on the left at times, why can't we expect VDB to show more in a position which really isn't that alien to him? It isn't really the position he has been played in but the expected role. He is not going to be a Fernandes replacement. Same way if you asked de Bruyne to play left back he probably isn't going to look as good a player as we know he is. I'm not entirely sure how asking a creative midfielder to play a position that is not at all unfamiliar to him and show even an ounce of quality is remotely the same as asking de Bruyne to play at left back.
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