|
Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 8:44:50 GMT
People suggesting leaving Fred out for a bit- have you seen us without Fred? It isn’t pretty. fred is such a strange case at the moment. he can be absolutely massive in games. his energy and break up play are outstanding. but his shooting and passing are some of the worst i have seen in recent years, like absolutely shocking. but its true, we look much better with him playing. i really like the lad and love his energy and drive, but at the same time he can be so frustrating with his atrocious passing. His passing stats are better than Pogba’s, Denny’s and Scott’s. This isn’t my opinion, it’s fact. Fred has a tendency to play one terrible ball in a game, which I think colours people’s opinions on his passing. It happened the other night, my old man was basically saying it and then I checked. He had a successful passing rate of 90% against West Ham. Donny’s was 85%. I don’t think anyone said Donny’s passing was ‘some of the worst they’ve ever seen’ on here, have they?
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 8:48:51 GMT
Also, I understand there are different types of passes. I know a player like Pogba will try things more adventurously and I’m completely happy with that. But that’s not the issue here. People are saying Fred’s passing is atrocious and yet his successful passing % is higher than all the other midfielders bar Matic.
|
|
|
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 11, 2021 8:49:41 GMT
fred is such a strange case at the moment. he can be absolutely massive in games. his energy and break up play are outstanding. but his shooting and passing are some of the worst i have seen in recent years, like absolutely shocking. but its true, we look much better with him playing. i really like the lad and love his energy and drive, but at the same time he can be so frustrating with his atrocious passing. His passing stats are better than Pogba’s, Denny’s and Scott’s. This isn’t my opinion, it’s fact. Fred has a tendency to play one terrible ball in a game, which I think colours people’s opinions on his passing. It happened the other night, my old man was basically saying it and then I checked. He had a successful passing rate of 90% against West Ham. Donny’s was 85%. I don’t think anyone said Donny’s passing was something of the worst they’ve ever seen’ on here, have they? This is exactly it. The "He's a bad passer" thing continually gets me. As you say, he makes one, maybe two stinkers in a game and it clouds people's judgement of that area of his game. He's actually a very competent and efficient passer.
|
|
|
Post by alwaysUnited on Feb 11, 2021 9:01:36 GMT
Our fans sometimes bewilder me. The thing about his shooting is baffling to me as well. He brings a lot of different qualities to the side, but the thing that’s low down (imo) for a CM who plays more defensively, shooting, suddenly becomes hugely important. Not his energy, his tackling, interceptions, pressing, no it’s his shooting that should keep him out of the team. Apparently we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot, did you know that? And still in Europe. Fred’s shooting Is what’s caused us to drop those points against Sheffield Utd, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool. Fred’s shooting lost us games against that Turkish side whose name I can’t spell and Leipzig. Yeah. If you are referring to my comment , it was not a call for him to be dropped , more like 'wouldn't it be nice if he could also shoot a bit'.
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 9:15:58 GMT
The thing about his shooting is baffling to me as well. He brings a lot of different qualities to the side, but the thing that’s low down (imo) for a CM who plays more defensively, shooting, suddenly becomes hugely important. Not his energy, his tackling, interceptions, pressing, no it’s his shooting that should keep him out of the team. Apparently we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot, did you know that? And still in Europe. Fred’s shooting Is what’s caused us to drop those points against Sheffield Utd, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool. Fred’s shooting lost us games against that Turkish side whose name I can’t spell and Leipzig. Yeah. If you are referring to my comment , it was not a call for him to be dropped , more like 'wouldn't it be nice if he could also shoot a bit'. Not you. There was another post saying we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot. Seriously.
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Feb 11, 2021 10:56:50 GMT
If you are referring to my comment , it was not a call for him to be dropped , more like 'wouldn't it be nice if he could also shoot a bit'. Not you. There was another post saying we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot. Seriously. I think that was Kamilo. I took it as tongue in cheek, but might be wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Rustin Cohle on Feb 11, 2021 11:14:04 GMT
Our fans sometimes bewilder me. The thing about his shooting is baffling to me as well. He brings a lot of different qualities to the side, but the thing that’s low down (imo) for a CM who plays more defensively, shooting, suddenly becomes hugely important. Not his energy, his tackling, interceptions, pressing, no it’s his shooting that should keep him out of the team. Apparently we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot, did you know that? And still in Europe. Fred’s shooting Is what’s caused us to drop those points against Sheffield Utd, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool. Fred’s shooting lost us games against that Turkish side whose name I can’t spell and Leipzig. Yeah. I can only speak for myself, but there's a few reasons I think why his shooting comes up: 1) A wasted shot is naturally more of a flashpoint for comment than an excellent interception or tackle, especially in a tight game. I don't think anyone is denying Fred has been consistently brilliant with the latter in recent times, and that it isn't vitally important, but a shooting opportunity gone awry is just more likely to get comments in the match thread. It doesn't mean I and others haven't quietly noticed his excellence. 2) His shooting really is comically atrocious. It's the worst I can recall seeing from a United central midfielder. Players like Carrick and Hargreaves rarely ventured forward but his shooting so far has been significantly worse than both. And he continues to get into good shooting positions, so it becomes just a little bit more frustrating each time they are wasted - though in fairness to him the past couple of weeks he's passed up decent shooting chances in favour of a simple pass, which is positive progress. 3) Because his passing is also poor at times (albeit better than his shooting), it feeds into a broader view that he is world-beating defensively and unhelpful when we have the ball (except when recycling possession, which admittedly is an important part of the game in his role). This naturally leads to comparison with Scotty, who is less brilliant defensively but much more well-rounded overall (albeit his passing could still improve). 4) I think many of us feel that we don't need both Fred and Scotty (or one plus Matic) when playing against the weaker teams (with recognition that they have had some brilliant performances together in games against stronger teams). Our next two league games are against WBA and Newcastle. Do we really need both of them to play together? I think it's a great opportunity to rest both for one game each, give VdB some runouts in a deeper role next to the one that does play as part of a 2 in a 4-2-3-1, and see how that works. I'd consider it in the Sociedad games too, but I really feel that we shouldn't need both in the next two league matches. I want to emphasise again that I think Fred has been excellent this season and before, and has been vital in several wins. His incredible defensive qualities almost make his attacking faults even more frustrating, as he really could be the complete midfielder if he were a decent passer and shooter.
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 11:47:00 GMT
The thing about his shooting is baffling to me as well. He brings a lot of different qualities to the side, but the thing that’s low down (imo) for a CM who plays more defensively, shooting, suddenly becomes hugely important. Not his energy, his tackling, interceptions, pressing, no it’s his shooting that should keep him out of the team. Apparently we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot, did you know that? And still in Europe. Fred’s shooting Is what’s caused us to drop those points against Sheffield Utd, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool. Fred’s shooting lost us games against that Turkish side whose name I can’t spell and Leipzig. Yeah. I can only speak for myself, but there's a few reasons I think why his shooting comes up: 1) A wasted shot is naturally more of a flashpoint for comment than an excellent interception or tackle, especially in a tight game. I don't think anyone is denying Fred has been consistently brilliant with the latter in recent times, and that it isn't vitally important, but a shooting opportunity gone awry is just more likely to get comments in the match thread. It doesn't mean I and others haven't quietly noticed his excellence. 2) His shooting really is comically atrocious. It's the worst I can recall seeing from a United central midfielder. Players like Carrick and Hargreaves rarely ventured forward but his shooting so far has been significantly worse than both. And he continues to get into good shooting positions, so it becomes just a little bit more frustrating each time they are wasted - though in fairness to him the past couple of weeks he's passed up decent shooting chances in favour of a simple pass, which is positive progress. 3) Because his passing is also poor at times (albeit better than his shooting), it feeds into a broader view that he is world-beating defensively and unhelpful when we have the ball (except when recycling possession, which admittedly is an important part of the game in his role). This naturally leads to comparison with Scotty, who is less brilliant defensively but much more well-rounded overall (albeit his passing could still improve). 4) I think many of us feel that we don't need both Fred and Scotty (or one plus Matic) when playing against the weaker teams (with recognition that they have had some brilliant performances together in games against stronger teams). Our next two league games are against WBA and Newcastle. Do we really need both of them to play together? I think it's a great opportunity to rest both for one game each, give VdB some runouts in a deeper role next to the one that does play as part of a 2 in a 4-2-3-1, and see how that works. I'd consider it in the Sociedad games too, but I really feel that we shouldn't need both in the next two league matches. I want to emphasise again that I think Fred has been excellent this season and before, and has been vital in several wins. His incredible defensive qualities almost make his attacking faults even more frustrating, as he really could be the complete midfielder if he were a decent passer and shooter. These are fair points but as I’ve shown, he’s a better passer than any of our midfielders bar Matic.
|
|
|
Post by RAZ on Feb 11, 2021 12:45:37 GMT
fred is such a strange case at the moment. he can be absolutely massive in games. his energy and break up play are outstanding. but his shooting and passing are some of the worst i have seen in recent years, like absolutely shocking. but its true, we look much better with him playing. i really like the lad and love his energy and drive, but at the same time he can be so frustrating with his atrocious passing. His passing stats are better than Pogba’s, Denny’s and Scott’s. This isn’t my opinion, it’s fact. Fred has a tendency to play one terrible ball in a game, which I think colours people’s opinions on his passing. It happened the other night, my old man was basically saying it and then I checked. He had a successful passing rate of 90% against West Ham. Donny’s was 85%. I don’t think anyone said Donny’s passing was ‘some of the worst they’ve ever seen’ on here, have they? now thats very interesting, thanks for pointing it out stew. would have never guessed his passings stats are that high. i dont know what lead me to that conclusion. might be the fact that he is mostly attempting safe passes and tends to miss a couple of them, which then might lead to my frustration with his passing. gonna have a closer look in the upcoming games as i`m actually surprised by this fact, fair play to him.
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 12:56:39 GMT
His passing stats are better than Pogba’s, Denny’s and Scott’s. This isn’t my opinion, it’s fact. Fred has a tendency to play one terrible ball in a game, which I think colours people’s opinions on his passing. It happened the other night, my old man was basically saying it and then I checked. He had a successful passing rate of 90% against West Ham. Donny’s was 85%. I don’t think anyone said Donny’s passing was ‘some of the worst they’ve ever seen’ on here, have they? now thats very interesting, thanks for pointing it out stew. would have never guessed his passings stats are that high. i dont know what lead me to that conclusion. might be the fact that he is mostly attempting safe passes and tends to miss a couple of them, which then might lead to my frustration with his passing. gonna have a closer look in the upcoming games as i`m actually surprised by this fact, fair play to him. I admit, I was somewhat surprised myself.
|
|
|
Post by safariRed on Feb 11, 2021 13:04:21 GMT
Also, I understand there are different types of passes. I know a player like Pogba will try things more adventurously and I’m completely happy with that. But that’s not the issue here. People are saying Fred’s passing is atrocious and yet his successful passing % is higher than all the other midfielders bar Matic. And Matic doesn't really play enough games to even out his %.
|
|
|
Post by safariRed on Feb 11, 2021 13:11:33 GMT
Van de Beek isn't even showing glimpses of quality though. Berbatov was criminally underrated and Kagawa, Mata showed enough that you can easily come to the conclusion with them that we wasted them. VDB is literally showing nothing, the games are passing him by. I don't like shitting on young players. Seen him play plenty for Ajax and know he has quality. We all know how tough it can be to adjust to English football too, so I'm not saying the guy is done here and has no future but he gives no confidence that he's going to find something before the end of this season. Coming from Ajax where there is a clear identity of what style of football they play to United must be a huge shock to the system. The boy deserves all the time needs to adjust.
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Feb 11, 2021 13:19:05 GMT
Van de Beek isn't even showing glimpses of quality though. Berbatov was criminally underrated and Kagawa, Mata showed enough that you can easily come to the conclusion with them that we wasted them. VDB is literally showing nothing, the games are passing him by. I don't like shitting on young players. Seen him play plenty for Ajax and know he has quality. We all know how tough it can be to adjust to English football too, so I'm not saying the guy is done here and has no future but he gives no confidence that he's going to find something before the end of this season. Coming from Ajax where there is a clear identity of what style of football they play to United must be a huge shock to the system. The boy deserves all the time needs to adjust. Are you trying to say, 'Give it Bruno and hope', doesn't count as a clear identity of style of football?
|
|
|
Post by bushy1987 on Feb 11, 2021 13:33:52 GMT
Coming from Ajax where there is a clear identity of what style of football they play to United must be a huge shock to the system. The boy deserves all the time needs to adjust. Are you trying to say, 'Give it Bruno and hope', doesn't count as a clear identity of style of football? It's kinda like big Sam at Bolton, hoof up top and see what Kevin Davies can do, although atleast that was actually a tactic, a shit tactic, ours is more hope,hope Bruno can do a bit of magic
|
|
|
Post by Rustin Cohle on Feb 11, 2021 13:38:31 GMT
I can only speak for myself, but there's a few reasons I think why his shooting comes up: 1) A wasted shot is naturally more of a flashpoint for comment than an excellent interception or tackle, especially in a tight game. I don't think anyone is denying Fred has been consistently brilliant with the latter in recent times, and that it isn't vitally important, but a shooting opportunity gone awry is just more likely to get comments in the match thread. It doesn't mean I and others haven't quietly noticed his excellence. 2) His shooting really is comically atrocious. It's the worst I can recall seeing from a United central midfielder. Players like Carrick and Hargreaves rarely ventured forward but his shooting so far has been significantly worse than both. And he continues to get into good shooting positions, so it becomes just a little bit more frustrating each time they are wasted - though in fairness to him the past couple of weeks he's passed up decent shooting chances in favour of a simple pass, which is positive progress. 3) Because his passing is also poor at times (albeit better than his shooting), it feeds into a broader view that he is world-beating defensively and unhelpful when we have the ball (except when recycling possession, which admittedly is an important part of the game in his role). This naturally leads to comparison with Scotty, who is less brilliant defensively but much more well-rounded overall (albeit his passing could still improve). 4) I think many of us feel that we don't need both Fred and Scotty (or one plus Matic) when playing against the weaker teams (with recognition that they have had some brilliant performances together in games against stronger teams). Our next two league games are against WBA and Newcastle. Do we really need both of them to play together? I think it's a great opportunity to rest both for one game each, give VdB some runouts in a deeper role next to the one that does play as part of a 2 in a 4-2-3-1, and see how that works. I'd consider it in the Sociedad games too, but I really feel that we shouldn't need both in the next two league matches. I want to emphasise again that I think Fred has been excellent this season and before, and has been vital in several wins. His incredible defensive qualities almost make his attacking faults even more frustrating, as he really could be the complete midfielder if he were a decent passer and shooter. These are fair points but as I’ve shown, he’s a better passer than any of our midfielders bar Matic. Saw those just after I posted - interesting stuff. I think part of that is because Fred is taking on less risky passes (part of the recycling possession I referred to). Pogba and Bruno at the very least will have lower stats because they are playing riskier passes, trying to break between the lines. However, even with that taken into account it's still surprising - I might need to re-evaluate my view of his passing. Will certainly keep a closer eye on it in his next few games.
|
|