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Post by safariRed on Feb 11, 2021 13:39:10 GMT
Coming from Ajax where there is a clear identity of what style of football they play to United must be a huge shock to the system. The boy deserves all the time needs to adjust. Are you trying to say, 'Give it Bruno and hope', doesn't count as a clear identity of style of football? yes, Job saving tactics don't count as a style of football.
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Post by alt on Feb 11, 2021 13:39:34 GMT
On vdB, I don't think his position is the primary issue here, it's the system. Compare the Ajax approach to ours and it's like chalk and cheese. From playing, quick, slick, one-touch football to whatever the fuck ours is meant to be, and it's no great surprise he struggles. Time and time again you see him ask for the ball yet rarely does, and I think that's typically down to our players not willing to (or being told not to) play with risk, or not being able to.
And I'm not just dismissing the criticism aimed at him either, I do agree that he should be doing more in the 7 minutes he's on the pitch.
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Post by alt on Feb 11, 2021 13:48:42 GMT
Also, just on Fred/McTominay, they are deserving of some of the praise they are getting, but to me, it only highlights how we have a severe lack of world-class quality in the middle. Both are good players in their own right, but if we genuinely wanted to challenge for the title next year (which we don't as Ole will still be manager), we've got no chance of doing that with them two being our primary midfield pairing.
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Post by fergiegiveusawave on Feb 11, 2021 14:05:41 GMT
Van de Beek isn't even showing glimpses of quality though. Berbatov was criminally underrated and Kagawa, Mata showed enough that you can easily come to the conclusion with them that we wasted them. VDB is literally showing nothing, the games are passing him by. I don't like shitting on young players. Seen him play plenty for Ajax and know he has quality. We all know how tough it can be to adjust to English football too, so I'm not saying the guy is done here and has no future but he gives no confidence that he's going to find something before the end of this season. Coming from Ajax where there is a clear identity of what style of football they play to United must be a huge shock to the system. The boy deserves all the time needs to adjust. Never disputed any of that. I'll give players as much time as possible. Just don't think it's a one sided argument with him. As I said yesterday, his position can be summed up quite simply, Ole should've absolutely used him better but Donny should also be doing better.
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Post by Tatty on Feb 11, 2021 14:38:04 GMT
Also, I understand there are different types of passes. I know a player like Pogba will try things more adventurously and I’m completely happy with that. But that’s not the issue here. People are saying Fred’s passing is atrocious and yet his successful passing % is higher than all the other midfielders bar Matic. A lot of Fred's detractors comes form that time Troy Deeney said Watford targeted him in a game they won. Yes, he has clangers every now and then that usually result in a big chance for the opposition, but that's because he's the only fucker who moves for the centre backs when we do our baffling 'playing out from the back' nonsense.
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Post by ratbag on Feb 11, 2021 15:43:32 GMT
Also, I understand there are different types of passes. I know a player like Pogba will try things more adventurously and I’m completely happy with that. But that’s not the issue here. People are saying Fred’s passing is atrocious and yet his successful passing % is higher than all the other midfielders bar Matic. A lot of Fred's detractors comes form that time Troy Deeney said Watford targeted him in a game they won. Yes, he has clangers every now and then that usually result in a big chance for the opposition, but that's because he's the only fucker who moves for the centre backs when we do our baffling 'playing out from the back' nonsense. That's true...I have noticed that sometimes there is nobody to play to...almost like they are hiding...Pogba definitely did it earlier in the season...latterly he did start to show... As for Fred's passing stats, they will always be better than Bruno's and Pogba's but as has been said, I will now start to watch him more closely to see whether the stats are being skewed in some way... But he does also have the worst shooting of any Brazilian I have ever seen!! I know that it isn't his primary role but maybe he could do a little practice in training?
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Post by Bestie on Feb 11, 2021 15:59:23 GMT
Also, I understand there are different types of passes. I know a player like Pogba will try things more adventurously and I’m completely happy with that. But that’s not the issue here. People are saying Fred’s passing is atrocious and yet his successful passing % is higher than all the other midfielders bar Matic. A lot of Fred's detractors comes form that time Troy Deeney said Watford targeted him in a game they won. Yes, he has clangers every now and then that usually result in a big chance for the opposition, but that's because he's the only fucker who moves for the centre backs when we do our baffling 'playing out from the back' nonsense. I feel like I must have seen that before but have forgotten about it. When did Deeney say that? Tosser.
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Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 16:03:18 GMT
A lot of Fred's detractors comes form that time Troy Deeney said Watford targeted him in a game they won. Yes, he has clangers every now and then that usually result in a big chance for the opposition, but that's because he's the only fucker who moves for the centre backs when we do our baffling 'playing out from the back' nonsense. That's true...I have noticed that sometimes there is nobody to play to...almost like they are hiding...Pogba definitely did it earlier in the season...latterly he did start to show... As for Fred's passing stats, they will always be better than Bruno's and Pogba's but as has been said, I will now start to watch him more closely to see whether the stats are being skewed in some way... But he does also have the worst shooting of any Brazilian I have ever seen!! I know that it isn't his primary role but maybe he could do a little practice in training? I’m not being pedantic but how can his stats be skewed? He either successfully makes a pass or he doesn’t. As I said before, the issue isn’t whether or not he’s an adventurous passer (he isn’t), hes not in the team for that imo. He’s in there to win it back and quickly recycle it. Do I wish he was Roy Keane? Absolutely. Does he get unjust criticism for his passing? It seems so.
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Post by Karma on Feb 11, 2021 16:15:50 GMT
The issue I have with Donny is how much time certain players have been given to deliver in comparison. Shaw Lingard Jones McTominay Fred
The first three got years. Only one of those is finally delivering after more than enough time.
Yet Donny seemingly has to deliver pretty much immediately or gets hailed a dud. Added to the fact he’s come from overseas and should be afforded some space to adapt.
Let’s not judge him based on what Bruno does. Nani also suffered from comparisons to another player. He was on a hiding to nothing.
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Post by Bestie on Feb 11, 2021 16:46:21 GMT
That's true...I have noticed that sometimes there is nobody to play to...almost like they are hiding...Pogba definitely did it earlier in the season...latterly he did start to show... As for Fred's passing stats, they will always be better than Bruno's and Pogba's but as has been said, I will now start to watch him more closely to see whether the stats are being skewed in some way... But he does also have the worst shooting of any Brazilian I have ever seen!! I know that it isn't his primary role but maybe he could do a little practice in training? I’m not being pedantic but how can his stats be skewed? He either successfully makes a pass or he doesn’t. As I said before, the issue isn’t whether or not he’s an adventurous passer (he isn’t), hes not in the team for that imo. He’s in there to win it back and quickly recycle it. Do I wish he was Roy Keane? Absolutely. Does he get unjust criticism for his passing? It seems so. Think ratbag is talking about his assuming Fred has a better pass completion percentage than e.g. Bruno/Pogba because he plays fewer 'risk' passes, which he is now going to reassess.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2021 17:27:05 GMT
The thing about his shooting is baffling to me as well. He brings a lot of different qualities to the side, but the thing that’s low down (imo) for a CM who plays more defensively, shooting, suddenly becomes hugely important. Not his energy, his tackling, interceptions, pressing, no it’s his shooting that should keep him out of the team. Apparently we’d be top of the league if Fred could shoot, did you know that? And still in Europe. Fred’s shooting Is what’s caused us to drop those points against Sheffield Utd, Everton, Arsenal and Liverpool. Fred’s shooting lost us games against that Turkish side whose name I can’t spell and Leipzig. Yeah. I can only speak for myself, but there's a few reasons I think why his shooting comes up: 1) A wasted shot is naturally more of a flashpoint for comment than an excellent interception or tackle, especially in a tight game. I don't think anyone is denying Fred has been consistently brilliant with the latter in recent times, and that it isn't vitally important, but a shooting opportunity gone awry is just more likely to get comments in the match thread. It doesn't mean I and others haven't quietly noticed his excellence. 2) His shooting really is comically atrocious. It's the worst I can recall seeing from a United central midfielder. Players like Carrick and Hargreaves rarely ventured forward but his shooting so far has been significantly worse than both. And he continues to get into good shooting positions, so it becomes just a little bit more frustrating each time they are wasted - though in fairness to him the past couple of weeks he's passed up decent shooting chances in favour of a simple pass, which is positive progress. 3) Because his passing is also poor at times (albeit better than his shooting), it feeds into a broader view that he is world-beating defensively and unhelpful when we have the ball (except when recycling possession, which admittedly is an important part of the game in his role). This naturally leads to comparison with Scotty, who is less brilliant defensively but much more well-rounded overall (albeit his passing could still improve). 4) I think many of us feel that we don't need both Fred and Scotty (or one plus Matic) when playing against the weaker teams (with recognition that they have had some brilliant performances together in games against stronger teams). Our next two league games are against WBA and Newcastle. Do we really need both of them to play together? I think it's a great opportunity to rest both for one game each, give VdB some runouts in a deeper role next to the one that does play as part of a 2 in a 4-2-3-1, and see how that works. I'd consider it in the Sociedad games too, but I really feel that we shouldn't need both in the next two league matches. I want to emphasise again that I think Fred has been excellent this season and before, and has been vital in several wins. His incredible defensive qualities almost make his attacking faults even more frustrating, as he really could be the complete midfielder if he were a decent passer and shooter. I disagree with the bolded part. We cannot afford having zero goal threat from central midfielders, particularly when there is very little coming from the flanks (thankfully, Luke Shaw is starting to fulfill his potential). Little wonder teams find it easy to shut shop against us when we have three players who are willing to shoot.
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Post by Stew on Feb 11, 2021 18:02:13 GMT
I’m not being pedantic but how can his stats be skewed? He either successfully makes a pass or he doesn’t. As I said before, the issue isn’t whether or not he’s an adventurous passer (he isn’t), hes not in the team for that imo. He’s in there to win it back and quickly recycle it. Do I wish he was Roy Keane? Absolutely. Does he get unjust criticism for his passing? It seems so. Think ratbag is talking about his assuming Fred has a better pass completion percentage than e.g. Bruno/Pogba because he plays fewer 'risk' passes, which he is now going to reassess. At the risk of boring people (and really this is my last post on it)- Fred is a safe passer and takes way less risks. But that’s not my issue. My issue is Fred being described as a terrible passer or one of the worst passers we’ve seen in recent years when the facts directly contradict these opinions.
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Post by Ole's Red Whiteknight03 Army on Feb 11, 2021 18:11:21 GMT
FWIW, I pulled offensive and defensive stats for both Fred and McTominay and for comparison chose Xhaka and Ndidi as the first bad (Xhaka) and good (Ndidi) midfielders that popped into my head. This was more for my own curiosity than anything else, because I don’t rate Fred and aren’t really sure what he does well. His passing stats compared to McTominay’s surprised me, especially when I looked at the through balls and accurate long balls stats as I would’ve expected them to be reversed. Defensively, it would appear that Fred flies in more (higher tackles/match) but wins less (tackle success %). Not sure what the difference is between a duel and a 50/50 or why McTominay wins more duels and Fred wins more 50/50s. Overall, I would say that the massive difference in goals production skews people’s perception in favour of McTominay, it certainly does mine, however if Fred is going to contribute 2 goals in 63 apps, I would expect the defensive stats to be tilted more significantly in his favour, which they aren’t. Realistically, neither of them are good enough at anything to justify a starting role. They’re not that much better defensively than Xhaka to justify what you’re giving up offensively, nor are they much better offensively than Ndidi to justify the chasm in defensive ability.
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Post by bushy1987 on Feb 11, 2021 18:26:43 GMT
Again I think peoples main gripes is playing them both at the same time, obviously for certain games were we need protection then yeah play them, but when we are playing them both against midtable and relegation fodder I think that is were the issue comes in.
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Post by bushy1987 on Feb 11, 2021 18:27:46 GMT
FWIW, I pulled offensive and defensive stats for both Fred and McTominay and for comparison chose Xhaka and Ndidi as the first bad (Xhaka) and good (Ndidi) midfielders that popped into my head. This was more for my own curiosity than anything else, because I don’t rate Fred and aren’t really sure what he does well. His passing stats compared to McTominay’s surprised me, especially when I looked at the through balls and accurate long balls stats as I would’ve expected them to be reversed. Defensively, it would appear that Fred flies in more (higher tackles/match) but wins less (tackle success %). Not sure what the difference is between a duel and a 50/50 or why McTominay wins more duels and Fred wins more 50/50s. Overall, I would say that the massive difference in goals production skews people’s perception in favour of McTominay, it certainly does mine, however if Fred is going to contribute 2 goals in 63 apps, I would expect the defensive stats to be tilted more significantly in his favour, which they aren’t. Realistically, neither of them are good enough at anything to justify a starting role. They’re not that much better defensively than Xhaka to justify what you’re giving up offensively, nor are they much better offensively than Ndidi to justify the chasm in defensive ability. So what your saying is we need to buy ndidi in the summer
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