Lots of niggly things

[chiff]

I was just responding to a thread about Ronny and I got to thinking about how we really need a change of management here. Now this isn't a SAF bash - it's a reflection of the fact that the way we've done things over the past two or three years could have been done differently.Or more precisely, it might have been better done a different way.
1) Keano - Truth is he was past his sell-by date. Greatest player in last twenty years but the engine was screwed and that caused frustration. A different manager might have said to him - " C'mon Roy, before it gets any worse, have a season at the rest home in Glasgow and then pack it in". Instead we have blazing rows and no doubt a lot of bruised egos and still he does what could have been done amicably
2) Ruud - We don't know what has gone on but something has. And a fantastic goalscorer has turned into a nobody within four months. It LOOKS like a playing problem and the Saha/Rooney works better than a Ruud/Rooney but handled differently, we could have kept Ruud happier. Fine, don't play him in the CC final, but bring him on as sub. Reward the contribution he has made. Not punish him
3) Rio - The drug thing was handled pathetically. Of course once we started arguing the toss, the FA and FIFA were going to throw the book. Back the guy in private if you must - and I don't think you should - but publicly hit him with the full weight of the club. At least that way, we don't upset the blazers.
4) Rio's contract - No question about it. Take it or leave it. The guy is GOOD. Good mind you not brilliant or irreplaceable. "Do you want to play for us or not?" Yes? Then this is a measure of your worth. Instead we get a constant placation by SAF. "Yes he'll sign - later" And an agent holds the gun at Manchester United.
5) Ronny.- Again , not the fastest writer when it comes to contracts. And now we get Ronny doing a Reyes apparently. I don't believe it entirely - at best it'll have been a few agent's whispers, but that's not what worries me. He and Roo are at a similar state of their careers. But when Roo goes off on one it's because he's a winner and wants to win. How often have you seen Ronny blow a fuse because of the team rather than his own selfishness. The management skill here again seems to be one of placation.

You may by now have decided that my management techniques belong to those shared by Attilla the Hun. That's probably fair. But so did Bill Shankly. At the other end was Sir Matt . But with both of them, they knew about management and getting the best from players. Sir Matt used Jimmy Murphy as his alter ego, and the partnership worked. SAF has always been an "inspirer" and that worked well with players that you bring up from kids. It isn't working with this lot. I have never understood how he managed Eric. I think that Eric was in love with his teammates and played for them, not the club or SAF. The team spirit of that side was phenomenal because the primadonnas still played for the team. Unfortunately, this lot don't. It may be a sign of the times but nevertheless it needs addressing. Whether it's Carlos or SAF, I don't know. But a change of technique - or personnel -is urgently required

[onenedkelly]

Good post Chiff,

Im not questioning your points as they seem quite valid so I'll just make a few points if I may mate.

Fergies been drawn into making decisions he really shouldn't have to make in the 1st place and these decisions he is being questioned on come directly from the respective players behaviour.

Should Keane have spoke out about his team mates? Maybe if he was playing consistantly for us at the time then yeah but a for a player who was at the end of his career and wouldn't feature much more anyway I don't feel he was in a position to do so.

Should Ruud have spat his dummy out at being dropped and should he have started a training ground argument that turned into a personall attack about Ronaldo's misfortune?

Should Rio have failed to turn up for his dope test?

These are experienced proffesionals and as a manager of the greatest club in the World these are incidents you really should not have to be dealing with.

You should be merited for your success as a football manager and not on how you handle internal problems. Your time should be taken up on managerial football subjects and not personall behaviour problems.

Id keep SAF at United for another 10 years at least #unitedbanner#

chiff said:

I was just responding to a thread about Ronny and I got to thinking about how we really need a change of management here. Now this isn't a SAF bash - it's a reflection of the fact that the way we've done things over the past two or three years could have been done differently.Or more precisely, it might have been better done a different way.
1) Keano - Truth is he was past his sell-by date. Greatest player in last twenty years but the engine was screwed and that caused frustration. A different manager might have said to him - " C'mon Roy, before it gets any worse, have a season at the rest home in Glasgow and then pack it in". Instead we have blazing rows and no doubt a lot of bruised egos and still he does what could have been done amicably
2) Ruud - We don't know what has gone on but something has. And a fantastic goalscorer has turned into a nobody within four months. It LOOKS like a playing problem and the Saha/Rooney works better than a Ruud/Rooney but handled differently, we could have kept Ruud happier. Fine, don't play him in the CC final, but bring him on as sub. Reward the contribution he has made. Not punish him
3) Rio - The drug thing was handled pathetically. Of course once we started arguing the toss, the FA and FIFA were going to throw the book. Back the guy in private if you must - and I don't think you should - but publicly hit him with the full weight of the club. At least that way, we don't upset the blazers.
4) Rio's contract - No question about it. Take it or leave it. The guy is GOOD. Good mind you not brilliant or irreplaceable. "Do you want to play for us or not?" Yes? Then this is a measure of your worth. Instead we get a constant placation by SAF. "Yes he'll sign - later" And an agent holds the gun at Manchester United.
5) Ronny.- Again , not the fastest writer when it comes to contracts. And now we get Ronny doing a Reyes apparently. I don't believe it entirely - at best it'll have been a few agent's whispers, but that's not what worries me. He and Roo are at a similar state of their careers. But when Roo goes off on one it's because he's a winner and wants to win. How often have you seen Ronny blow a fuse because of the team rather than his own selfishness. The management skill here again seems to be one of placation.

You may by now have decided that my management techniques belong to those shared by Attilla the Hun. That's probably fair. But so did Bill Shankly. At the other end was Sir Matt . But with both of them, they knew about management and getting the best from players. Sir Matt used Jimmy Murphy as his alter ego, and the partnership worked. SAF has always been an "inspirer" and that worked well with players that you bring up from kids. It isn't working with this lot. I have never understood how he managed Eric. I think that Eric was in love with his teammates and played for them, not the club or SAF. The team spirit of that side was phenomenal because the primadonnas still played for the team. Unfortunately, this lot don't. It may be a sign of the times but nevertheless it needs addressing. Whether it's Carlos or SAF, I don't know. But a change of technique - or personnel -is urgently required

[moxdevil]

I agree. You'd think that some things, especially regarding Ronaldo could be dealt with simply with a word in the ear from a coach or the manager. If they have already tried this there's not much evidence of it. Management action lately seems to find itself part of a soap opera like the problems with Rio and Ruud and the examples of the number of players who've left the club in a peculiar manner in recent years.

It is like the club has become blasé or passive and thus the problems are springing up with Fergie and the players attitude and resulting behaviour.

[sahahaha]

But at the same time (and i'me not disagreeing either just putting in some input) why did Keane feel the need (for the first time) to come out and attack the players in public?

Why do we have players who miss a drug test, and after standing by them (which included a full wage fr 8 months) they turn round and hold us to ransom for much more money than they're worth, even though their performance's have been up and down?

Why are Ruud and Ronaldo coming to blows in training? Why has Van Nistelrooy's performance's seemed lack luster in big games?

Why didn't we perform against the easiest group in the CL?

[onenedkelly]

I think Keane came out and said what he did when we were really struggling especially with the depleted midfield and he thought players were not playing to their capabilites and therefore made his points, thing is people can look in from the outside and presume that United are in trouble due to the lack lustre performances, what you don't need is your captain confirming it and making it public knowledge, IT SHOULD HAVE STAYED INTERNAL.

Terry and Campbell are up there with Rio as some of the highest paid players for their respective clubs and he signed so to me thats not a problem.

As for Ruud and Ronny falling out I can't answer that but what i do know is that if Ruud knew what he was saying with Ronny and the referrals he is deffo out of order.
If he innocently made those referrals about CQ being his daddy then it should be water under the bridge.

As for CL failings Id refer to the depleted midfield

Also all three subjects were put under the Media spotlight and were lead to believe shite that ain't true and is only printed to sell a story.

sahahaha said:

But at the same time (and i'me not disagreeing either just putting in some input) why did Keane feel the need (for the first time) to come out and attack the players in public?

Why do we have players who miss a drug test, and after standing by them (which included a full wage fr 8 months) they turn round and hold us to ransom for much more money than they're worth, even though their performance's have been up and down?

Why are Ruud and Ronaldo coming to blows in training? Why has Van Nistelrooy's performance's seemed lack luster in big games?

Why didn't we perform against the easiest group in the CL?

[redseven]

every manager makes mistakes....i mean look at wenger...he made the mistake of not buying expereinced players, and they made champs leage by skin of their teeth

i would keep fergie, but surely it must be time to try and maybe get a bright young coach to be asistant for when he leaves.,..i would hate the thought of quiroz managing us (some could say he already does lol) i mean the man is a pillock, quiroz, not fergie.......

the problem is, is that at manchester united these things will happen, it happens at all big clubs, and as united are one of the biggest the press surrounding each issue makes it 100 times worse, if the same thing happened at southend united or bury, you wouldnt hear about it....its a price that comes with being a big club.....

also the englsih press as a whole have summin to do with it....i just read a book where vialli compates italian football to english football, a very good book,,,,he mentions one good fact, in england the press doesnt care about football as much as the italian press do, the english press go for scandlas and twist words in every sense.....a quote from fergie in there says 'i dont do press conferences in england because the english press wont be after about football, they will be asking me about coontract issues and other external factors not directly involved with performances on the pitch, such as a players love life....i do press conferences in europe as the european press care for the football, every word you say is written in the papaer the next day, gutranteed, in england they paraphrase what you say'

[chiff]

Judging from the replies, it's clear that it's not clear!!!!!!!!!
And I think that makes the problem more difficult. Of, course, unless Ned is really David Gill, none of us really know. Most of the time we lokk at it from a simplistic football view and the conclusions are 0-0 or 5-1. And then we blame Joe or Sid and it's pretty easy for us. The facts are that there have been a lot of 0-0's or worse, particularly in the CL. And we blame the lack of a midfield or whatever. But I KNEW that Keano was on borrowed time and I'm not a surgeon. And so did SAF. So where were the contingencies. Well we bought a couple and they were rank. SO who chose Dj-Dj and Kleb. Presumably SAF. Once you look away from the football side and place it in a pure business sense -and that's what the Glazers are - it's all about accountability. No problem at the moment because there are bums on seats and revenues are still OK. But next year?
After listening to O'Neill - and bearing in mind who he's surrounded by on the TV- I think the time is fast approaching for SAF to go more upstairs and to bring in a manager like Martin. Trouble is I don't think a strong manager like him would come all the time SAF was about. The idea of a good young assistant doesn't appeal much; we've seen 3 and none would make a Utd MANAGER.
The trouble is SAF is still an excellent manager most of the time. He just seems to make gaffs of enormous proportions and, what is worse, nearly everyone else can see them. His blind faith in some of the cart horses he's introduced defy belief . Yet his loyalty to players who he still has faith in those who are playing badly and who then start to perform again show why he's good.
The Yanks (apologies to the red one) do not rank patience as a virtue. I don't want to see SAF struggle like Keano did and end 20 years of achievement on a sour and bitter note . Perhaps a diplomatic "health problem" in the not too distant future may be the solution. Directorship - sort out the FA that sort of thing. Otherwise, I fear the worst.

[Red Yank]

chiff said:

The Yanks (apologies to the red one) do not rank patience as a virtue. I don't want to see SAF struggle like Keano did and end 20 years of achievement on a sour and bitter note . Perhaps a diplomatic "health problem" in the not too distant future may be the solution. Directorship - sort out the FA that sort of thing. Otherwise, I fear the worst.

No worries Chiff, patience is a virtue not commonly found in the business/sports world anymore so players and managers find themselves on borrowed time whether they are in the US or abroad. The one thing that seems to be the common denominator is obtaining success quickly, which we witness in American sports all of the time. I have a lot of respect and admiration for SAF and the work he has done to make United the successful club that it is, but am not blinded by loyalty either. I wish for him to remain at United for as long as he wishes provided he is a successful manager. I have the patience to let a manager build a team and if that means not winning the Prem for a few years or so then that's what it will take but if we don't see results then it is time to re-examine the decisions being made. What's troublesome now is that we haven't for won for several years and we're still in a process of rebuilding. I trust SAF but I too have moments where I think situations could have been handled differently.

[onenedkelly]

#thumb#

Hey Red Yank, not sure if you know but if you do whats the rundown on the American football team the Glazers own?

Are they successfull? Are the fans happy with the owners?

nyjorge said:

chiff said:

The Yanks (apologies to the red one) do not rank patience as a virtue. I don't want to see SAF struggle like Keano did and end 20 years of achievement on a sour and bitter note . Perhaps a diplomatic "health problem" in the not too distant future may be the solution. Directorship - sort out the FA that sort of thing. Otherwise, I fear the worst.

No worries Chiff, patience is a virtue not commonly found in the business/sports world anymore so players and managers find themselves on borrowed time whether they are in the US or abroad. The one thing that seems to be the common denominator is obtaining success quickly, which we witness in American sports all of the time. I have a lot of respect and admiration for SAF and the work he has done to make United the successful club that it is, but am not blinded by loyalty either. I wish for him to remain at United for as long as he wishes provided he is a successful manager. I have the patience to let a manager build a team and if that means not winning the Prem for a few years or so then that's what it will take but if we don't see results then it is time to re-examine the decisions being made. What's troublesome now is that we haven't for won for several years and we're still in a process of rebuilding. I trust SAF but I too have moments where I think situations could have been handled differently.

[redseven]

the tampa bay buccanners??? i aint american, but im sure glazer brought a bit of success to them.....they won the super bowlo under him.....

he paid for a new stadium to be built,,,,,but surprise surprise he put the ticket prices far too high and many Buccs fans couldnt afford to see their team play....

[Red Yank]

Well I don't follow American football but the Glazer's improved the Bucs and as Redseven mentioned they made it to the Superbowl and won which for a team that for most of it's short history was plagued with mediocrity.

[redseven]

sorry redyank....did i steal your thunder??? lol

i know he asked you...i just sorta knew the answer lol.....sorry mate!!!

[unitedinhardcore]

if SAF had got rid of keane because he was past it then we'd have all freaked
when he thinks the team works better without ruud and then there is a problem that we truely don't know the details of, we freak.

so he can keep a hero and be damned or get shot of another and be damned.

everything he does is for the good of the club. only he knows what is going on inside the club and i trust him to do what is best for the fans & the club

once he has finished this team he is gonna leave the next manager one hell of a legacy (and i hope to god it aint o'neill)

[Busby Boy]

chiff said:

I was just responding to a thread about Ronny and I got to thinking about how we really need a change of management here. Now this isn't a SAF bash - it's a reflection of the fact that the way we've done things over the past two or three years could have been done differently.Or more precisely, it might have been better done a different way.
1) Keano - Truth is he was past his sell-by date. Greatest player in last twenty years but the engine was screwed and that caused frustration. A different manager might have said to him - " C'mon Roy, before it gets any worse, have a season at the rest home in Glasgow and then pack it in". Instead we have blazing rows and no doubt a lot of bruised egos and still he does what could have been done amicably
2) Ruud - We don't know what has gone on but something has. And a fantastic goalscorer has turned into a nobody within four months. It LOOKS like a playing problem and the Saha/Rooney works better than a Ruud/Rooney but handled differently, we could have kept Ruud happier. Fine, don't play him in the CC final, but bring him on as sub. Reward the contribution he has made. Not punish him
3) Rio - The drug thing was handled pathetically. Of course once we started arguing the toss, the FA and FIFA were going to throw the book. Back the guy in private if you must - and I don't think you should - but publicly hit him with the full weight of the club. At least that way, we don't upset the blazers.
4) Rio's contract - No question about it. Take it or leave it. The guy is GOOD. Good mind you not brilliant or irreplaceable. "Do you want to play for us or not?" Yes? Then this is a measure of your worth. Instead we get a constant placation by SAF. "Yes he'll sign - later" And an agent holds the gun at Manchester United.
5) Ronny.- Again , not the fastest writer when it comes to contracts. And now we get Ronny doing a Reyes apparently. I don't believe it entirely - at best it'll have been a few agent's whispers, but that's not what worries me. He and Roo are at a similar state of their careers. But when Roo goes off on one it's because he's a winner and wants to win. How often have you seen Ronny blow a fuse because of the team rather than his own selfishness. The management skill here again seems to be one of placation.

You may by now have decided that my management techniques belong to those shared by Attilla the Hun. That's probably fair. But so did Bill Shankly. At the other end was Sir Matt . But with both of them, they knew about management and getting the best from players. Sir Matt used Jimmy Murphy as his alter ego, and the partnership worked. SAF has always been an "inspirer" and that worked well with players that you bring up from kids. It isn't working with this lot. I have never understood how he managed Eric. I think that Eric was in love with his teammates and played for them, not the club or SAF. The team spirit of that side was phenomenal because the primadonnas still played for the team. Unfortunately, this lot don't. It may be a sign of the times but nevertheless it needs addressing. Whether it's Carlos or SAF, I don't know. But a change of technique - or personnel -is urgently required

Good read, valid points but I disagree.

Sir Alex Ferguson has and will continue to carry things out how he sees best, why do you think he has been so succesful? And, I believe he is building a great side which has the credentials and abilities to dominate as his past sides have!...

One, if a player acts out of hand as with Roy Keane and maybe Van Nistelrooy if some stories are to be believed, Fergie will show him who is boss and that nobody is bigger than United. From day one he has done this just ask McGrath, Ince & Stam.

Two, Ferguson will always back his players and for you to suggest that Fergie and United should have punished Rio publicly is a joke to be honest with you. United is a club built on tradition and the new ownership will not change that in my opinion. With the likes of Charlton, Ferguson & Gill at the club those will remain and with Giggs, Scholes & Solskjaer being touted as present and future ambassadors and employees of the club long may it continue.

I also agree with Ned 100%!...

[Red Yank]

redseven said:

sorry redyank....did i steal your thunder??? lol

i know he asked you...i just sorta knew the answer lol.....sorry mate!!!

No thunder steal when it comes to questions about American football, there's little I know and most of it is what I hear on the news.