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Post by Bestie on Jun 4, 2011 9:12:25 GMT
The gimmick is stale, 'E need to just go with what the people who are old enough to buy the merchandise want and turn him heel. we've been over this before, i asked you if he turns heel who his top babyface rival is supposed to be and i've heard nothing back ! a top heel is only as good as the top babyface, and there is NO-ONE anywhere near cenas level for him to feud with if he turns heel. look at my example of the fall-out of mania 17 when rock went to hollywood and austin turned heel. the company booked themselves into trouble. i can't keep banging the drum, but he will not and can not turn heel, the company are in no position to be able to turn him heel. and if he was to turn heel, the mixed reaction would continue, cos the adults would cheer him and the kids boo him. so what's the point Nah mate, the adults would still boo him. He'd just be getting roundly booed. It'd be great. WWE have operated without a top heel for so long that a sudden turn from Cena might actually help to create the top face. You keep going on about Austin and Rock. Look at how Austin became the top superstar in the company - HHH was due to get a massive push, then MSG thing happened, and it went to Austin. Never looked back, but it was never planned that way. Doing things against the master plan can work wonders. The Rock only came out as a breakthrough superstar after they ditched his whole 'clean cut' gimmick way back in the early 90's. Either they turn Cena, or they take the shine off him and rough him up a little. Just change something. I'd love to give you names of the replacement top face, but you don't know hpow's the chips will lie if Cena ever fucks off to the dark (possibly entertaining) side. Jericho, if he comes back, could be a brilliant Austin-style face. Maybe Miz. If they could switch a couple of the younger guys who are cutting teeth as heels, that'd work. Ziggler was looking excellent, he's already way better than Cena in the ring, and his mic skills are alright. Even his whole problem when he first came through was getting the heat. Dump Guerrero, turn face, it could work except 'E have lobotomised his character with the dark hair and serious/focussed thing. EDIT: On the size of John Cena's arms. They're a tad smaller than Hogan's were in his prime, and yet it was still a huge, massive deal when Hogan slammed Andre. Yet you see Cena frequently tossing the biggest guys around like they're nothing. That's horseshit. |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 9:36:25 GMT
when austin and rock were on the rise, the landscape was completely different. Rocky wasn't the top guy when he turned, he was a midcarder and had a strong midcard to feud against, and he didn't have the company on his back like cena does. Austins rise didn't start gathering business-changing pace until he feuded with bret, a year after he won KOTR.
when i refer to these two, i'm talking about a botched heel turn for austin, where he turned at mania, rock worked the raw after then left for hollywood. WWE lost it's number 1 and 2 babyfaces. They could have turned trips face against austins heel, but they joined up in the power trip. So austin and trips are heels 1 and 2, and the top babyface feud for them was american badass undertaker and kane. i love the taker, but at the time this whole deal didn't cut the mustard.
If cena turns, he's got nothing to work with. the company has no flagship babyface, which is never good for business. which is why cena has carried the company for so long, regardless of his ring style or promos, because he's got the star power to serve as the number 1. the only time a cena turn would work is if he becomes the number 2 to a new, HOT babyface.
Jericho doesn't work as a face, his last big return started with a babyface run which didn't last very long because he wasn't getting a good reaction. He is a natural heel, and i can't imagine how you see him as an austin-style babyface.
I would like to see an edge back on cena's character. i'd prefer more serious, big-fight promos than the goofy ones, but i'm not WWE's target audience sadly.
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 9:40:02 GMT
EDIT: On the size of John Cena's arms. They're a tad smaller than Hogan's were in his prime, and yet it was still a huge, massive deal when Hogan slammed Andre. Yet you see Cena frequently tossing the biggest guys around like they're nothing. That's horseshit. it's lazy on WWE's part for not making it a bigger deal. not cenas fault at all. When he slammed Viscera years ago, it was a genuine holy shit moment, and they should have marketed the shit out of it with t-shirts and all sorts. they can ask him not to slam the big guys every time he fights them if they intend to make it a big deal. But...they don't care. they obviously don't see the need |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 9:48:32 GMT
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Post by Bestie on Jun 4, 2011 10:21:10 GMT
when austin and rock were on the rise, the landscape was completely different. Rocky wasn't the top guy when he turned, he was a midcarder and had a strong midcard to feud against, and he didn't have the company on his back like cena does. Austins rise didn't start gathering business-changing pace until he feuded with bret, a year after he won KOTR. when i refer to these two, i'm talking about a botched heel turn for austin, where he turned at mania, rock worked the raw after then left for hollywood. WWE lost it's number 1 and 2 babyfaces. They could have turned trips face against austins heel, but they joined up in the power trip. So austin and trips are heels 1 and 2, and the top babyface feud for them was american badass undertaker and kane. i love the taker, but at the time this whole deal didn't cut the mustard. If cena turns, he's got nothing to work with. the company has no flagship babyface, which is never good for business. which is why cena has carried the company for so long, regardless of his ring style or promos, because he's got the star power to serve as the number 1. the only time a cena turn would work is if he becomes the number 2 to a new, HOT babyface. Jericho doesn't work as a face, his last big return started with a babyface run which didn't last very long because he wasn't getting a good reaction. He is a natural heel, and i can't imagine how you see him as an austin-style babyface. I would like to see an edge back on cena's character. i'd prefer more serious, big-fight promos than the goofy ones, but i'm not WWE's target audience sadly. Well, Austin/Hart started pretty soon after KotR '96 - Bret came back that October and Austin had been taunting him for a while to build up to it, so it was hardly a year. You keep mentioning the Power Trip, and while I actually enjoyed the two best guys whaling the shit out of the Hardyz, and some of the 'Austin loves McMahon' stuff was friggin' hilarious, I know what you mean. But you can't use that one example of bad timing and ill-concieved booking to say never again can switching the top face work. Hell, look at the vitriol Hogan got when he turned in WCW and joined the Outsiders. That was a pretty successful top face-to-top heel turn. It revamped a company So it definately can work. Also, look at the boost Piper and Savage got when Hogan turned, you don't know what impact a Cena turn would hve on other guys. About Jericho as an Austin-style face, I don't mean Jericho acts like Austin or 'owt. I just mean Jericho will be able get away with doing heel stuff but still be top face in the company. It doesn't matter how strong or weak the mid-card is right now. WWE have to do something different. It's their own fault for not building a proper mid-card and not letting the talented guys breakthrough properly because they have to job to Cena anytime they start to make a real impact. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 4, 2011 10:24:30 GMT
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Post by Tatty on Jun 4, 2011 10:42:16 GMT
Enough Cena. Let's talk about Eric Young dressed and wrestling as Great Muta. SUPERB!!!
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 11:26:40 GMT
austin was after bret soon after KOTR yes, but he didn't start catching fire til 97, leading up to mania 13 and the double turn. i'm not sure how this relates to cena, my point is bout the power trip, and the loss of the 1 and 2 babyfaces
i was waiting for someone to bring up hogan. yes, historic heel turn, fantastic stuff. but again, different landscape. the outsiders were the talk of the industry, and hogan aligning with them was big. there's nothing as hot in wrestling today, and there'll never be a heel turn of that impact again. the stars aligned for that one. more importantly, the key to the whole angle working was that hogan had an obvious, long-term opponent in Sting - the franchise player, Mr. WCW vs Hogan, the WWF legend and his crew of WWF invaders, as WCW marketed it. The build up to their blowoff at starrcade was the stuff of legend, lasting over a year. of course they dropped the ball at the final hurdle, and better booking would have seen sting beat hogan without the controversy, the disbanding of the nWo and the push of new, younger stars like jericho, eddy, benoit, rey rey etc.
point is, there just aint anywhere near the potential for Cena to make a turn and have anywhere near the impact Hogan did. IMO It won't work unless the business takes another upswing, there are more stars at the top and the product is better, and in can't see that happening at all
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 11:30:37 GMT
It doesn't matter how strong or weak the mid-card is right now. WWE have to do something different. It's their own fault for not building a proper mid-card and not letting the talented guys breakthrough properly because they have to job to Cena anytime they start to make a real impact. i just meant austin and rock were midcarders when their pushes started and they started gathering momentum. today, to get someone over, WWE puts them straight at the top of the card more often than not, when they aren't ready and they've got no credibility. It worked for Sheamus admittedly (remind me who put him over again?) they just keep dropping the ball. ziggler was ticking along nicely in the midcard, gaining in credibility, not getting pushed down our throats too quick. then he cut his fucking hair ! AAAAGH |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 11:31:10 GMT
Enough Cena. Let's talk about Eric Young dressed and wrestling as Great Muta. SUPERB!!! didn't see it, when was that |
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Post by Tatty on Jun 4, 2011 11:51:37 GMT
Enough Cena. Let's talk about Eric Young dressed and wrestling as Great Muta. SUPERB!!! didn't see it, when was that This weeks Impact Wrestling Matters, or whatever it's called this week. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 4, 2011 12:22:53 GMT
i just meant austin and rock were midcarders when their pushes started and they started gathering momentum. today, to get someone over, WWE puts them straight at the top of the card more often than not, when they aren't ready and they've got no credibility. It worked for Sheamus admittedly (remind me who put him over again?)they just keep dropping the ball. ziggler was ticking along nicely in the midcard, gaining in credibility, not getting pushed down our throats too quick. then he cut his fucking hair ! AAAAGH I don't really fancy prolonging this discussion, people will begin to think we're obsessed and we seem to be in complete agreement that 'E keep fucking up potentially really good things. The only thing I want to say though about the bit in bold - yes Cena did drop the belt to Sheamus and people were pleasently surprised, however nobody was praising the quality of the match, just the outcome as it came as such a huge shock and bonus to people that Cena lost for once. Anyway, as I said, WWE have apparently lost the ability to properly build a superstar's career, we agree on it, and we both hate Kevin Dunn. Close enough? #cheers# |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 12:29:41 GMT
i think we are the current-product bashers where tommy and tatty are into it, so iv got your back on that one man. we'll agree to disagree on cena, no surprise really as he seems to be the marmite man who splits opinion down the middle
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Post by Tatty on Jun 4, 2011 12:33:58 GMT
I can bash the product, I just don't think it's as bad as people make out.
Anyone listen to any podcasts?
Colt Cabana
Dave Lagana
The LAW
Wrestling Observer with Bryan Alvarez and Dave 'Humourless' Meltzer
Are my personal faves.
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 15:45:01 GMT
i've not listened to the top 3. i heard a couple of the wrestling observer shows. do u subscribe? cos they aren't free are they. what about the other 3?
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