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Post by tommyred on Jun 3, 2011 20:32:52 GMT
Are there still people who think HHH is shit? He carried Taker to a good match at 'Mania. Helped get The Rock and Foley over in the mid-90's, got Austin over as a super-heel, somehow managed to get Batista over too. To say the guy can't carry a match is ridiculous. Sometimes he has stinkers, Steiner and Goldberg come to mind, but that's when he's been a cunt to those guys for whatever reasons. Not shit, just overrated, with the ability to bring it in some big matches, as he did with Taker (although Taker was just as good as HHH in that match). The word carry is embarassingly overused. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 3, 2011 20:34:24 GMT
I'm talking week in week out against guys like Cody Rhodes, Jeff Hardy, R-Truth, hell even guys like Heath Slater, just anybody he is facing. I am not even talking match quality right now, I mean he makes his opponent look a threat no matter who they are, something so called greats like HHH never truly mastered.Carry jobs don't really exist, and besides I'd say Cena was the better guy in his matches with the likes of HHH, RVD, Umaga. You've fallen into the trap of thinking wrestling is aimed at YOU and you alone. The idea that it's a "vasy majority" who don't like Cena is ridiculous. The majority of casual fans and people who actually go to the shows love him,and he always gets huge pops even if some people boo him. You must have selective hearing or something. The point about greats of the business not liking him is absolute bullshit, especially as I've heard the likes of Steve Austin and The Rock praise him. One - What. Two - Seriously?! Triple H doesn't put guys over well? SERIOUSLY? What. The fuck. Cena never manages to sell his opponents. That's one of the worst possible aspects of the Cena Super-human Hero character - the fact he will, 99.9999999r.% of the time make the comeback. I've said this before. Carry jobs - You're actually right, in a sense, about the old-school definition "carry jobs" not actually existing (anymore). What I'm talking about is when Cena is in the ring with a shit wrestler, he isn't able to produce really good matches. Obviously, it isn't his fault if he's carded against dross, but the great superstars could make good out of really shit booking. Put Cena in the ring with a talented opponent, he gets by okay. Look 'Mania 23, HBK & 'Mania 24, the triple threat. Not terrible matches, but look at his opponents - top talents. Then look at the matches he had with Khali and tell me Cena can carry someone. Or compare HHH vs. Batista to Cena vs. Batista and tell me which ones were the better spectacle. I'm not sayig Cena doesn't ever work, I'm saying he tries but can't, and it ends up looking bloody awful. And if you reckon Cena gets bigger pops than he does booing you're the one with selective hearing, though I admit the cheering soundtrack played over the beginning of his entrance is pretty loud. But that's an aside. The company's top face shouldn't be getting boos at all, or at least nothing significant to register over cheering. The majority of adult WWE fans don't like Cena. That's not me thinking that the product is aimed solely at me, that's me speaking from experience of talking to other guys who like/liked wrestling and who have been to events e. g. the house shows. I also realsie that the product has changed since I was an avid follwer, but that doesn't mean I need to embrace it and not be pissed that the whole industry is stagnating to hell. The gimmick is stale, 'E need to just go with what the people who are old enough to buy the merchandise want and turn him heel. Or let him get beat up some. Let him bleed, lose big matches, not be able to fireman carry guys like Big Show or Kane because nobody his size could do that except Hogan, one time. When Rock started to get booed (and nowhere near the level Cena gets), he went on as a face for a bit then in 2003 became an awesome heel. The whole Cena Super-human Hero gimmick is so stale it makes him look like a Rock-Austin-Hogan mutation wannabe. |
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Post by Tatty on Jun 3, 2011 21:38:15 GMT
So the 'E have cancelled their scheduled Smackdown House shows for this weekend, and might again next week. Discuss.
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Post by Tatty on Jun 3, 2011 21:40:45 GMT
you can fuck off did he carry taker to a good match ! taker fucking brought it. so did triple H. to answer your question, no. i don't get the triple H bashers at all. i liked the long-arse promos he used to open raw with during the mcmahon-helmsley and evolution days that people moan about. i didn't get bored of him being in the main event like some others. Triple H is the stuff you build a company around, and i'll be sorry when he's had list last match, but at the same time, i'm looking forward to what he can do for the company when he's running it I'll re-phrase my HHH/Taker comment. From the moment it was clear Taker was fucked, HHH carried the suspense and the match for a good 5 minutes, making the match more enjoyable, to me at least. |
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Post by tommyred on Jun 3, 2011 21:59:02 GMT
Cena never manages to sell his opponents. That's one of the worst possible aspects of the Cena Super-human Hero character - the fact he will, 99.9999999r.% of the time make the comeback. I've said this before. I can sort of understand the opinion that he is not the greatest seller in the world, but the statement "he never manages to sell his opponents" is flat out wrong because he sells a lot for everybody. Whether you think his selling is believable or realistic is another matter, and he has been known to forget about selling at certain stages, but he never no sells anybody's offence. The point I was making is that any Cena match tends to be a back and forth affair with his opponent getting in a lot of offence and Cena eventually managing to get the win. HHH on the other hand tended to simply crush a lot of guys and take away their credibility. Therefore I'd say out of the two, Cena is a lot better at giving guys "the rub" and making them look good in defeat. Pro wrestling 101: Top face gets beaten down, odds stacked against him, makes a comeback. Even Stone Cold did that. Cena is not the greatest of all time or anything in the ring but he is very good. I have to disagree with you because personally I think Cena got the best match of Lashley, Khali and Umaga's careers by a distance. If you're getting the best match of a guy's career, you must be fairly good, especially as those guys faced HHH too, among others. I'd say Cena does a fairly good job of getting the best out of his opponents. I will admit that he is sometimes inconsistant and goes through bad phases, but on the whole he will do a good job. As for your Batista comparison, do you really think the HHH/Batista Mania match was better than the Cena/Batista mania match??? I thought the HHH one was boring as fuck whereas the Cena one was pretty much as good as it gets for a 14minute match. The Last Man Standing match at Extreme Rules was pretty great too. I will however concede that the Hell in a Cell between HHH and Tista was some spectacle and possibly better than any Cena/Tista match, but still, it's 2 to 1 in Cena's favour in my book. For the record, Edge was never that good. He was charismatic and was fun in gimmick matches, but I never saw him as a great wrestler by any means. You can't be serious with this man. Wrestlemania is pretty much the only time you hear a majority boo when his music hits. Usually the only thing you hear is a big pop, then eventually you start to hear a few boos. At MOST it's a 50/50 split. The reason he isn't turned is because he's a great face and sells a lot of merchandise. The landscape of wrestling has changed with the internet etc and a real divide between the younger fans and the older fans. No face who is 100% good is going to get a purely positive reaction, but as long as he gets a good reaction and an interesting reaction, I am sure they don't care, especially with all the money he's bringing in. You only have to look at the amount of Cena shirts in the crowd to see that. And personally I think it's wiser to focus on the next generation of wrestling fans, aka kids, than try to tempt back a load of jaded smarks who have been spoiled by the Attitude Era and overlook the key concepts of the business. You don't need to embrace it, but you need to show some understanding of WWE as a business and why it makes sense for them to get kids interested in the product and give those kids what they want. Personally, as an adult, I still find it very enjoyable and watch it every week. Most guys in their 20s started watching during the Attitude Era and refuse to accept that that was just one small period during wrestling history and is not representative of how pro wrestling has always been, or indeed should be. In fact there is even a school of thought that it killed wrestling. Personally I don't see WWE as stagnating, I see them as going through a transitional period. Wrestling has always had boom periods and down periods. It was worse than this when Bret Hart was on top, and the ratings showed that. The majority of adult fans does not = the majority of fans, and there is no reason why children should be taken out of this equation seeing as they are the main target audience and just as valid as anybody else. Wrestling has always been a family friendly form of entertainment. It's supposed to be something the whole family can enjoy. Cena appeals to kids and their parents, as he promotes strong values, just as Hogan did. People who are old enough to buy merchandise? Do you not see all the Cena merch at every show? Kids buy merch, or their parents buy them the merch. Why would you do what a few "smarks" want instead of the majority, the people who are going to be fans for years to come? It doesn't make sense to turn Cena right now from a business perspective, though I would like to see it fairly soon. It would be a risk, but one that will be worth taking before too long. The implication that he doesn't shift merch because he's marketed at kids is laughable though. As for his strength... nobody his size? Have you seen the guys arms? He really is freakishly strong, and faces have always been about overcoming the odds, even during the attitude era. Not sure why you're mentioning him bleeding because blading has been banned for 3 years now and isn't really necessary to the product. It can help matches sure, but they've tried to "clean up their act" in the face of media pressure and the business being exposed by "The Wrestler" and other things. Cena bled a lot on certain occasions before the blading ban came in though. He also loses his fair share of big matches, way more than guys like HHH ever did during their time as the top face. There are a lot of common misconceptions when it comes to Cena. |
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Post by tommyred on Jun 3, 2011 22:58:24 GMT
Don't read on if you don't want Smackdown spoiled......though it just aired so meh...
CHRISTIAN HEEL TURN BABY!!
HAVE A BIT OF THAT RANDY
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Post by Tatty on Jun 3, 2011 23:08:36 GMT
Don't read on if you don't want Smackdown spoiled......though it just aired so meh... CHRISTIAN HEEL TURN BABY!! HAVE A BIT OF THAT RANDY Inevitable, but I think he'd be better as the under-dog, ne'er do well face. So Smackdown has 3 main event heels and one face. I hope they move Dragon into the main event, but I won't hold my breath. |
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Post by tommyred on Jun 3, 2011 23:11:16 GMT
Say what you want about WWE, they know how to execute a slow-burn heel turn. They did it with Jericho in 2008, with Punk in 2009, and now this.
I kind of agree with what you are saying but on the other hand he's been that face for a while now. I'm interested to see what he can do as a heel again now, and it may be what pushes him to that next level.
As for Bryan.....can't see it.
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Post by tommyred on Jun 3, 2011 23:14:44 GMT
I'm sure there's a joke to be made about the "forum virgins" being wrestling fans.
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Post by Tatty on Jun 3, 2011 23:20:38 GMT
I'm sure there's a joke to be made about the "forum virgins" being wrestling fans. Yep.  |
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Kozzie
United Bench Warmer
Posts: 634
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Post by Kozzie on Jun 3, 2011 23:29:57 GMT
I don't know a whole lot about wrestling, but can you guys take Brock Lesnar back please?
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Post by Tatty on Jun 3, 2011 23:38:17 GMT
I don't know a whole lot about wrestling, but can you guys take Brock Lesnar back please? Too sick! |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 8:49:54 GMT
The gimmick is stale, 'E need to just go with what the people who are old enough to buy the merchandise want and turn him heel. we've been over this before, i asked you if he turns heel who his top babyface rival is supposed to be and i've heard nothing back ! a top heel is only as good as the top babyface, and there is NO-ONE anywhere near cenas level for him to feud with if he turns heel. look at my example of the fall-out of mania 17 when rock went to hollywood and austin turned heel. the company booked themselves into trouble. i can't keep banging the drum, but he will not and can not turn heel, the company are in no position to be able to turn him heel. and if he was to turn heel, the mixed reaction would continue, cos the adults would cheer him and the kids boo him. so what's the point |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 8:52:25 GMT
For the record, Edge was never that good. He was charismatic and was fun in gimmick matches, but I never saw him as a great wrestler by any means. yes he was man. edge is one of the greatest all-round talents in the history of the business |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 4, 2011 8:56:14 GMT
I don't know a whole lot about wrestling, but can you guys take Brock Lesnar back please? who are u dana white?  |
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