Quality of United's coaching/academy

[moxdevil]

Mar 31, 2012 19:42:10 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

Are you a qualified coach? Do you go to Carrington every day to watch the coaches train the players? So how can you say they are shite just because there havent been any world class players coming through by the bucketload?

The same way that i can judge the ability of a manager - on the results of his work, without being a fully qualified manager. How would you judge somebody's ability?

[ScholesEvilTwin]

Mar 31, 2012 21:51:43 GMT @moxdevil said:

Mar 31, 2012 19:42:10 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

Are you a qualified coach? Do you go to Carrington every day to watch the coaches train the players? So how can you say they are shite just because there havent been any world class players coming through by the bucketload?

The same way that i can judge the ability of a manager - on the results of his work, without being a fully qualified manager. How would you judge somebody's ability?

On their results - we won the youth cup last season and are on course again this season with one of the youngest youth teams in the country. The fact that the players aren't good enough to make the first team doesnt make the coaches shit.

[Deleted]

You can't say the youth academy is a waste of space if it is not producing top class players for United.
How much money have we brought into the club selling players who came through our youth system?
Not just the success stories like Beckham, Butt, Neville (P), Brown and O'Shea who have left the club (for about 38 million combined) but the one's who didn't quite make it like Campbell, Richardson, Eagles, Bardsley, Gibson, Simpson, Shawcross, Blake, Healy, (another 22 million or so there), and there's more that I can't think of at the moment.
Every season we sell someone off for a couple of million or more that came from our system, and every couple of years a product of our system starts getting some game time.
Some don't make it, but we still have a much better record than any other top club.
Within 3 years of the class of '95 Brown came through, a couple of years later it was O'Shea, a couple of years after that Fletcher came into the team, there was a gap of a few years to Evans, and now Wellbeck and Cleverley.
The 90 minutes rule does make it hard, young scousers are always likely to end up at Liverpool or Everton, so we're looking at young lads from the general Manchester, Blackburn, Preston area.

[moxdevil]

If the purpose of the academy was to win the youth cup then it could be considered a success, but it isn't the purpose of having an academy.

If we have an academy to make some money, when did we become Crewe Alexandria?

[ScholesEvilTwin]

So the academy should be turning out 11 world class players a season? Or every 2 seasons? Show me a clubs academy that does this?

You do know the Class of 92 was a once off? And that, as has been pointed out, getting 1 or 2 quality players every season or 2 or 3 is more realistic.

If the kids that are in our catchment area (and want to play for us) just arent that good what are the coaches to do about it? They cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

[moxdevil]

Apr 1, 2012 11:42:26 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

So the academy should be turning out 11 world class players a season? Or every 2 seasons? Show me a clubs academy that does this?

You do know the Class of 92 was a once off? And that, as has been pointed out, getting 1 or 2 quality players every season or 2 or 3 is more realistic.

If the kids that are in our catchment area (and want to play for us) just arent that good what are the coaches to do about it? They cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

This has to be said: Have you read anything that i have written? I ask this because you have an obvious tendency to completely misrepresent what someone has written with your straw men.

Referring to this and a previous comment, where have i asked for 11 world class players a season, or for that matter a bucket load of world class players, from the academy?

You are arguing against a straw man of your own creation. You'll have to let me know who wins.

If someone says, "Park was poor in tonight's game", you will come to his internet rescue by arguing against the following comment, "Park was shit tonight, has always been shit and needs to be sold to an abattoir so that glue can be made from him".

The fact that nobody has written this doesn't stop you from responding as though they had.

[ScholesEvilTwin]

"It has been 17 years since the golden generation of Scholes, Butt, Beckham et al came through and what have we produced since? Brown, Evans, O'Shea, Fletcher, and a host of championship footballers.

Considering the amount of money spent on the academy and the ability of the club to attract some of the best youngsters from Europe shouldn't we be producing a better standard of player than what we do? "

I said 11 players as an arbitrary amount because when others mentioned we have produced a couple players here, an odd player there you said that that wasnt good enough - so what exactly should we be producing then? How about you give a few specifics??

[ericactor1]

Does the responsibility solely rest on the coaching staff?

What about the scouting system and the quality of youngsters their bringing into the club?

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2012 9:45:55 GMT @moxdevil said:

If the purpose of the academy was to win the youth cup then it could be considered a success, but it isn't the purpose of having an academy.

If we have an academy to make some money, when did we become Crewe Alexandria?

It's not just to make money, no, but the money it does make helps us out, if we can sell 4 decent young players who are clearly not going to make it here for around 12-15 million combined (i.e. Eagles, Campbell, Richardson and Gibson) and that 12-15 million goes on 1 young player who is already good, and becomes class (i.e Ronaldo, Jones), then the youth system has helped us, no question.

We should produce more top talent? That's arguable.
From 95-05 I'd say we produced 2 players who could have been top class, but injuries held them back.
Brown was a fantastic young player, and Fergie routinely held him up as the most naturally gifted centre half in the country.
However, he done his cruciate twice in 2 years and missed 2 full seasons of football by the time he was 22, that is going to have a major impact on anyone. Not to mention the various other injuries he suffered over his time here, without those I have no doubt he would have been one of the finest defenders in the world, and he came through just 3 years after the class of '95.
Then we have Fletcher who for 18 months was one of the finest midfielders in the country, who then went right off the boil for the last couple of seasons. But we now know why, he's been attempting to play with a very serious medical condition.
Again, take that condition away and where would Fletcher be in terms of quality midfielders? He had progressed superbly from '07 to '09, why would that progress have just stopped?
Injuries/illness have robbed those 2 of being something even more than they are/could have been.
Evans is showing eveyone what a fine player he is and I can't think of many better centre backs in the country on present form.
And we are all hopefull about Cleverley and Wellbeck.
That could be 5 top class talents, from our own youth system, in the last 13 years, or one every 2 and a half years.
I'd say that's a pretty solid track record, baring in mind in the same period Arsenal have produced 3, Spurs 1, Chelsea 1 and Liverpool 1.

[Deleted]

i was recently reading a report prepared on english football clubs academies...this was about 7-8 years back i think(rene meulensteen was our youth coach at the time)
apparently he suggested 4 a side matches to the academy director at that time les kershaw for u-9's...he told kershaw that 4 a side was bettter than 8 a side for kids of this age group as in 8 a side the big kids dominate...they even prepared a report comparing both games in skills performed per 25 yards on the pitch(cruyff turn, drag back, stepover etc) and presented it to the premier league academy directors
kershaw later said that on hearing his suggestion "one of the coach parents reacted as if we had thrown a hand grenade at them"
they also said "Bloody ManU, if they don't fancy it, they can pull out of the games programme.' They didn't listen to the argument that what we were doing was good for kids' development."
"Clubs like Huddersfield and Stoke are not interested in developing players...when we play against them, it is like WW3...The parents of those kids shout get stuck in"
"very few clubs like Derby, Liverpool and Leicester think like us" he goes on to say

This shows how backward minded some of the clubs out there are...In England, none of the bottom clubs will agree to changing the rules which will benefit the top clubs whilst also taking England forward in football..they dont give a fuck abt us..they have too much pride to suck up to us...not the situation in Spain...almost everyone supports Madrid or Barca besides their own team...the entire country would watch el clasico...

AVB got trampled by the Football League last year for merely suggesting that top english clubs should have a B team instead of the reserve teams as the reserve league is not good enough..think of it our youngsters getting first hand experience in the Championship without having move away from the club...that wud be great wudnt it? sadly its not likely to happen...
English football is based a lot more on equality everywhere than other leagues in Europe..granted that will never happen...Huddeserfield will be Huddersfield and United will be United...but its a lot better than the likes of Spain and Italy where the top clubs influence the FA in every way possible to suit them...that wont happen in England(atleast not on that scale)...England may not be producing world class talent but English clubs are a lot better in behaviour than those whiny Spanish or Italian ones

[Jayrannasaurus]

I completely agree with the B-team Idea, have done for years.

Youngsters would benefit immensely from a more competitive league and stronger opponents, besides the fact that they'd be able to get the necessary game-time at their parent club.

[moxdevil]

Is it a coincidence that both in Germany and Spain the teams in the top flight have 2nd teams playing in competitive leagues and also happen to have a large number of good young players coming through.

The B-team idea makes a lot of sense.

[SAF_Legend]

I don't know much about how the youth system really works, but it definitely is important to keep it up to date and at a "world class" level. Producing talents such as the likes of Beckham and co. are very rare, and I guess people take for granted that they are a bunch of very talented footballers equipped not only with the right set of techniques, but also the footballing intellect and astute mentality. Very amazingly as well, they played in different positions. A combination of those are very rare, even in today's modern game.

I tend to see the benefit of a "B team" as well. Providing a competitive outlet for our youth would bring about an extra dimension to coaching their mental toughness as well as to increase intensity. Alternatively, the FA could use some of their money to make / upgrade a U-23 / reserve competitive league, so that it would be taken more seriously than the current reserve / youth leagues / games. Although I think the "B team" is a better idea.

Like I said, I have no idea how the system works, but I think youth players should be trained to be humble from the beginning - cleaning shoes or clothes of the first team would be a good start for example, although I'm not even sure if this is still allowed. There should be a sort of a culture, and this would allow United youths to be proud of being a United player and have the mental qualities of what a United player should have.

I don't think that we actually have a problem with our youth coaching system, and to be honest, I would reckon it's one of the best in the world. What I have problem with, is actually our tactical threat / coaching - which at the moment, we seem to be missing Carlos Queiroz for. Another aspect which worries me slightly is the medical side, but I don't know if that's just me being paranoid.