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Post by Rorschach on Dec 19, 2012 8:22:36 GMT
I would have liked to have seen someone like Strootman coming in (assuming all of the reports linking us to him have some substance). I can maybe see a couple of youngsters coming in at best but I think Ferguson is probably telling the truth with this one sadly.
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Post by alt on Dec 19, 2012 12:08:07 GMT
I was an advocate of Strootman for a while but now I'm thinking we'll need a more defensively minded player so Wanyama would be ideal, ain't going to happen though in January. We already have Cleverley and Anderson who are box to box midfielders, we need someone who can eventually replace Carrick, Strootman isn't that person, he isn't going to sit in front of the defence like Carrick does and if we paired Strootman and Cleverley/Anderson or the latter two together we'd be back to square one and be much too open (as the start of last season showed when Clevs and Ando were together).
I'd still love to see Strootman in a United shirt but for it to happen I imagine it'd be the end of Anderson which wouldn't bother me a great deal to be honest. People have been getting a little excited recently over his performances but it's just following the same old cycle of him of showing promise and then getting injured. It's been the typical scenario for the last few seasons, his overall fitness is still a huge issue and we can't consistently pick a player who's absolutely fucked after 60 / 70 mins.
If we did bring in Wanyama and/or Strootman in the summer (can't see it happening in Jan) then that'd sort our midfield out for the foreseable future (providing we do still plan to bring through the likes of Tunicliffe, Petrucci etc).
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Post by jimbonda on Dec 19, 2012 12:14:04 GMT
Strootman...but where would he fit? Should we get Carrick out?yep. if we are in the game of weakening our central midfield as much as possible that is. lets sell the one automatic pick we've got. i doubt many people have seen much of strootman but his name keeps coming up, probably based on the hype. if he's as good as is made out and is the right fit in midfield then i'd suggest a player like that would get the best out of carrick. and carrick would also get the best out of him. |
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Post by Bestie on Dec 19, 2012 14:26:01 GMT
Carrick is 31. We cannot sign players on the basis of who might look good playing beside him. Cleverley has shown in the last two games that he should be the automatic pick in midfield.
As for getting the best out of him, it can hardly be a coincidence that Anderson's best form last season, and Carrick's best form in at least year and a half this season has come about when they've played alongside Cleverley in a midfield pair. Cleverley is the man to build around, with the city/Sunderland game version of Carrick as definitive partner right now.
@ alto - Were we really too open with the Anderson -- Clverley pairing at the start of last season? We'd conceded 5 in 8 games before the Derby (where Anderson and Cleverley didn't play together). There were even a few clean sheets in there as well. (That's were we didn't concede any goal, just to remind eveyone as it's been so long since we've seen one of those!!)
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Post by JamBritRed on Dec 19, 2012 15:01:32 GMT
what about that Henriquez kid from Chile? ............... #secret# oh wait!.... he's already in the club. where is he then?  what about that Lucas kid from Sao Paulo? ...... #secret# oh..... he off to PSG is he? #hmm# well then, expect some no-name winger from an unknown team who will most likely get no games. #bangin# oh and expect Nani to get fit and SOLD in the same week. #huhuh# |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2012 15:48:41 GMT
I definitely agree we shouldn't be trying to handpick players that Carrick might look good playing alongside. I think Cleverley and an as yet unnamed world class CM that is yet to come to the club should be where we are looking long term. Carrick in fairness has stepped up in recent weeks but my opinions on him are divided.
1) He is very neat and tidy but doesn't pose anything like the goal threat I think he is capable of.
2) In games where we are struggling I think he goes missing for long spells. I am old fashioned and I like my 2 CM players to be to the fore and driving the team on when others around them are struggling. This is why I think this position is so pivotal on the field
3) He has limited enough mobility and doesn't cover the ground as well as perhaps we should expect from a Manchester United CM.
I think Carrick is ok but not much more than that. We have to apply the highest standards when judging our players. Cleverley on the other hand has huge potential and is starting to show his class. He is the here and now.
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Post by jimbonda on Dec 19, 2012 16:28:27 GMT
Carrick is 31. We cannot sign players on the basis of who might look good playing beside him. Cleverley has shown in the last two games that he should be the automatic pick in midfield. As for getting the best out of him, it can hardly be a coincidence that Anderson's best form last season, and Carrick's best form in at least year and a half this season has come about when they've played alongside Cleverley in a midfield pair. Cleverley is the man to build around, with the city/Sunderland game version of Carrick as definitive partner right now. last time carricks place has been under real threat was a couple of years ago. then he signed a new deal and he's been as automatic a pick as we've seen in midfield for a good few years. why? because he's been excellent over the last couple of seasons. he doesn't just play well next to cleverley, they can't even have played many games together. so what if he's 31? that's not old. especially not for a player who plays that particular role. |
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Post by Bestie on Dec 19, 2012 16:40:13 GMT
I'm considering we have a recent propensity to allow players hang around long enough to age and to become worse than mediocre in our midfield. I want to see us preparing for life without Michael Carrick (who has certainly not been as excellent as you'd like to make out for two seasons - being static in midfield prevents excellence. He wasn't, for example, automatic pick at the beginning of last season when Cleverley and Anderson were making our midfield look dynamic and dominating again) while he can still offer us substantial quality.
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Post by jimbonda on Dec 19, 2012 16:51:22 GMT
"being static in midfield prevents excellence" oh do me a favour man. are you saying he's never been excellent in a united shirt [your memory shouldn't need to work too hard, look at some of his recent displays]? or are you saying he has games where he's not 'static' and those are the games he excels in? i don't get your attitude about carrick. he's not the complete player and he can be frustrating but you seem to have a real problem with him.
still you still bang on about cleverley and anderson last season. they had a limited run together at the start of a season. it doesn't define either of them or what would work for us over the course of a full season. we've not seen either of them come to the fore in the business end like carrick has done and he's proved he's a key player in the biggest games.
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Post by Bestie on Dec 19, 2012 17:07:10 GMT
Yep, my entire post was about how Carrick is perpetually stationary and therefore no good. I have said before that I like Carrick, I think he's a terrific player that we have not been seeing the very best of in recent seasons. Cause? I think he is either stymied by the tactics we employ (he is instructed only to sit back when we attack, stand-off opposition players in possession, and generally play within a 15 yard corridor in front of the defence) or he is limiting himself for some other reason. (maybe his personality? He seems a pretty laid-back, nice, guy off the pitch.)
It doesn't matter who it was in a limited run together at the start of last season beyond the fact that they didn't include Michael Carrick. So quite the opposite of "as automatic a pick as we've seen in midfield". The only reason he got back into the team was through injuries to the players in front of him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2012 17:07:16 GMT
The one and only way to judge our players is against the highest possible standards. I think everyone will admit that CM has been the single biggest problem area of the pitch for us for nearly 5 years now. Carrick has played more than most in this position and not done enough for me.
He is decent and does the bits and pieces but doesn't control games the way the very best CM's do. We The one thing that fucking bugs me is if we were sorted in this area of the pitch I honestly believe we could beat Barca all day long in CL finals!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2012 17:13:26 GMT
Carrick is considered or number 1 Midfield player now.Compare Carrick to rival Midfield players. How far are we behind? You answer these questions.
Carrick or Toure?
Carrick or Wilshire?
Carrick or Ramirez?
Carrick or Dembele?
Carrick or Ozil?
Carrick or Xavi?
Carrick or Schweinsteiger?
Carrick or Bender?
Carrick or Alonso?
Carrick or Schneider?
Carrick or Fabregas?
I know this is a list of some of the top players but Manchester United should have a CM player amongst this company all day long.
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Post by jimbonda on Dec 19, 2012 17:25:22 GMT
It doesn't matter who it was in a limited run together at the start of last season beyond the fact that they didn't include Michael Carrick. So quite the opposite of "as automatic a pick as we've seen in midfield". The only reason he got back into the team was through injuries to the players in front of him. carrick is as automatic a pick as we've seen in midfield in recent years, an area fergie chops and changes about. he's started between 40 and 50 games every season. he's not been in the side through injuries either. just recently cleverley wasn't injured, he just wasn't picked. ando was coming off the bench. carrick was starting. i'll be the first to admit he has his downsides, can be too casual and it hurts his game in different ways. you say you like carrick so sorry if preaching to the converted but i gotta say he's a classy player who makes difficult things look easy and doesn't get nearly enough credit. |
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Post by jimbonda on Dec 19, 2012 17:29:36 GMT
He is decent and does the bits and pieces but doesn't control games the way the very best CM's do. We The one thing that fucking bugs me is if we were sorted in this area of the pitch I honestly believe we could beat Barca all day long in CL finals! he controlled the games against chelsea in the knockouts. then we played barca and they are a different animal. no team in the world would beat them 'all day long'. i know what you mean about comparing carrick with a bunch of other center mids. i'm not saying he's up there with the best in europe. what baffles me if when people talk about replacing him and pairing a new signing with anderson or cleverley. maybe in the future, but right now carrick is the mainstay [fact, not opinion] and we should be looking at who plays next to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2012 17:56:57 GMT
Hope this aint gonna turn into a carrick bashing. Until Clevs takes the reigns as our dominant midfielder Carrick is just that. Were not going to sign a mid so we might aswell forget about what ifs or who could we buy. It just aint gonna happen. Not until the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Fletch and Carrick retire. I admit hes not getting any younger but hes still an important part of our squad. For me he is a first starter but only because Ando cant stay fit.
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