R.I.P Nelson Mandela

[makedon]

One of the greatest humans ever alive. It is astounding how can a single man change the world so much and in a positive light at that.

R.I.P. Nelson Mandela. The world feels empty without you, but much stronger still thanks to your titanic existence.

[Bestie]

While a lot of tributes will be paid to Nelson Mandela in the next few days, it also shouldn't be forgotten that at one time he was a Communist, and a terrorist.

Just putting it out there, somebody had to say it. I hate this airbrushing of famous peoples' histories when they die. Makes what he became so much more poignant when you remember his past.

[Jayrannasaurus]

That's not the point Bestie.

The fact that he did't incite violence against the very people he committed terrorist attacks against, the same people who had imprisoned him etc etc etc is what the man was about.

Everyone knows he did some terrible things during the struggle, but the mark of the man is what he did after.

[Bestie]

Dec 6, 2013 9:35:04 GMT Jayrannasaurus said:

That's not the point Bestie.

The fact that he did't incite violence against the very people he committed terrorist attacks against, the same people who had imprisoned him etc etc etc is what the man was about.

Everyone knows he did some terrible things during the struggle, but the mark of the man is what he did after.

Dec 6, 2013 9:32:32 GMT Bestie said:

Just putting it out there, somebody had to say it. I hate this airbrushing of famous peoples' histories when they die. Makes what he became so much more poignant when you remember his past.

[Deleted]

Dec 6, 2013 9:32:32 GMT Bestie said:

While a lot of tributes will be paid to Nelson Mandela in the next few days, it also shouldn't be forgotten that at one time he was a Communist, and a terrorist.

Just putting it out there, somebody had to say it. I hate this airbrushing of famous peoples' histories when they die. Makes what he became so much more poignant when you remember his past.

I don't know everything about the guy and this isn't the place for a debate but terrorism has been one term used. Fighting for basic human rights would be another way of putting it. Kind of like going to Afghanistan or Iraq except in your own backyard. Different ways of seeing things. Anyway, you don't always have to be right to be a great man.

Edit. Know what you're trying to say but it hasn't been airbrushed out of history because I only learned that stuff today, so it's had the opposite effect really.

[NR7]

May your soul rest in peace. Don't know his priors or background but what he did is remarkable and forever etched in history..

[Bestie]

Dec 6, 2013 10:22:34 GMT @ausred88 said:

Dec 6, 2013 9:32:32 GMT Bestie said:

While a lot of tributes will be paid to Nelson Mandela in the next few days, it also shouldn't be forgotten that at one time he was a Communist, and a terrorist.

Just putting it out there, somebody had to say it. I hate this airbrushing of famous peoples' histories when they die. Makes what he became so much more poignant when you remember his past.

I don't know everything about the guy and this isn't the place for a debate but terrorism has been one term used. Fighting for basic human rights would be another way of putting it. Kind of like going to Afghanistan or Iraq except in your own backyard. Different ways of seeing things. Anyway, you don't always have to be right to be a great man.

Edit. Know what you're trying to say but it hasn't been airbrushed out of history because I only learned that stuff today, so it's had the opposite effect really.

Fighting, by way of terrorism. Trying to achieve freedom can be done without blowing stuff up.

I'm not saying Mandela is/will be/has been airbrushed, merely saying that it can happen when famous people die.

'Look at all the good he did!!! ... By the way he also discussed and supported the legitimacy of killing people.'

[JamBritRed]

RIP Mandela.

it is being bitterly felt here in Jamaica today. the Great man blessed this insignificant country with his presence TWICE. i was not lucky enough to see him, but the effect of that visit, and what the man stood for, is not lost on us here.

To be able to move from a position of militancy, to being incarcerated for what he believed to be the rest of his life, and to so humbly and dignifyingly accept and change his flaws to the point where 95% of the worlds population hold him up to be THE example for humanity and what it means to be a global citizen cannot be underestimated. This is the same journey that individuals and organisations the world over, be it Malcom X, Shin Fein, the FSA, etc. have tried to traverse and so many have failed or lost themselves to the cause. HE showed us what is possible if we forgive and move on. if only the leaders of today would be shamed enough to step up to the plate and lead by his example.

[Deleted]

The fact that he said "let bygones be bygones" and "What is in the past is in the past" after wrongfully losing 27 years of his life shows how humble and amazing the bloke must have been. Anyone that loses 27 years of their life when they shouldn't have would usually hold a grudge or be pissed at it, he wasn't.

That is enough in itself for me to respect the man like no other.

[Bestie]

Dec 6, 2013 14:06:01 GMT JamBritRed said:

To be able to move from a position of militancy, to being incarcerated for what he believed to be the rest of his life, and to so humbly and dignifyingly accept and change his flaws to the point where 95% of the worlds population hold him up to be THE example for humanity and what it means to be a global citizen cannot be underestimated. This is the same journey that individuals and organisations the world over, be it Malcom X, Shin Fein, the FSA, etc. have tried to traverse and so many have failed or lost themselves to the cause. HE showed us what is possible if we forgive and move on. if only the leaders of today would be shamed enough to step up to the plate and lead by his example.

(It's Sein Finn.)

Nelson Mandela was fighting (violently, at times) against something manifestly wrong, an unquestionable crime against humanity. Sein Finn/IRA were not. To group them even in the same thought is both an insult to the man who has just passed away and every life taken or destroyed but Sein Finn/IRA. The acts of terror and cowardice they inflicted in my country for 40 years should be never fogiven nor forgotten. That there are members of Sein Finn/IRA in positions of power in Northern Ireland spits in the face of morality, democracy, and basic decency.

Dec 6, 2013 14:12:23 GMT @cavelly2k said:

The fact that he said "let bygones be bygones" and "What is in the past is in the past" after wrongfully losing 27 years of his life shows how humble and amazing the bloke must have been. Anyone that loses 27 years of their life when they shouldn't have would usually hold a grudge or be pissed at it, he wasn't.

That is enough in itself for me to respect the man like no other.

Hang on. "wrongfully"? He pleaded guilty to one hundred and fifty-six acts of public violence (including, it should be noted, the organisation and command of public bombings) at his trial.

Apartheid was wrong, that much is obvious, but just because Mandela was fighting against something inherently wrong does not excuse his methods. He said so himself, his speeches since his release and the turn-around in South Africa have made pains to highlight that the man himself knows he is flawed and did wrong. Stalin fought the Nazis in the Second World War, but at the same time the man slaughtered twenty million (yes, really) of his own people over his time in power. That's not counting the other twenty-odd million that died as part of the Soviet War effort either.

Mandela's greatness came from the fact that not only did he change, but he acknowledged his failings and errors. That's what we should be remembering, in my opinion.

So yeah, pretty much this:

Dec 6, 2013 14:12:23 GMT @cavelly2k said:

That is enough in itself for me to respect the man

Well said Paulie.

[Deleted]

I'm self programed to struggle to like/justify people who cause death even if for the ultimate good such as soldiers and Presidents and Prime Ministers. I haven't seen any mention of Mandella causing a death yet though there may have been casualties, not really sure.

What I'm trying to get at is even before jail I don't see how he was different from a Winston Churchill. They bulldozed a whole black neighbourhood to make for a middle class white suburb, kind of like Hitler coming at England. Right or wrong is an individual opinion.

But as everyone says it's what he did after that which made him. Having said that he was a well educated and hard working man before all of this which would have been very difficult considering the chances his race were afforded back then.

[JamBritRed]

Dec 6, 2013 14:56:57 GMT Bestie said:

Dec 6, 2013 14:06:01 GMT JamBritRed said:

To be able to move from a position of militancy, to being incarcerated for what he believed to be the rest of his life, and to so humbly and dignifyingly accept and change his flaws to the point where 95% of the worlds population hold him up to be THE example for humanity and what it means to be a global citizen cannot be underestimated. This is the same journey that individuals and organisations the world over, be it Malcom X, Shin Fein, the FSA, etc. have tried to traverse and so many have failed or lost themselves to the cause. HE showed us what is possible if we forgive and move on. if only the leaders of today would be shamed enough to step up to the plate and lead by his example.

(It's Sein Finn.)

Nelson Mandela was fighting (violently, at times) against something manifestly wrong, an unquestionable crime against humanity. Sein Finn/IRA were not. To group them even in the same thought is both an insult to the man who has just passed away and every life taken or destroyed but Sein Finn/IRA. The acts of terror and cowardice they inflicted in my country for 40 years should be never fogiven nor forgotten. That there are members of Sein Finn/IRA in positions of power in Northern Ireland spits in the face of morality, democracy, and basic decency.

Glad you picked that up Bestie, and yeah i grouped them together. i'm of the opinion that you do understand what im trying to convey, but for others who may not get the analogy, im referring to the (initial) form of their opposition (irrespective of the justness of their cause). 

I know that Sein Finn is a terrorist organisation, and im in no informed position to determine the rational or sentiment of their cause. you are Irish, and you have a direct line to judge them, if you think they fit the description as terrorists, so be it. For a long time (his name somehow remained on the US terrorist list up until 2008) Mandela was considered a terrorist, my history is wrought with men similar to him, most of them have died because they couldn't make the adjustment in their approach as he did. Time and common sense has differentiated the two (Mandela and Sein Finn), but as you point out, history will show that they had a lot in common with their initial attempts to get the world to be aware of their cause. 

beyond that, i have no comment.

[Bestie]

I'm Northern Irish, and so are they. That's their problem!

Once again, any comparisons between Mandela, who was fighting against something patently and unquestionably wrong, and Sein Finn/IRA who fought for something only they unquestionably perceived as wrong, is abhorrent, in my view. Also, there is the fact that Mandela cam out and completely renounced any violence of his past. Sein Finn have never done that. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness still refer to their terrorist paramilitaries as 'volunteers'. They're a disgrace to humanity.

Mendela on the other hand, is an example.

[karthy]

It take great Courage to admit one's own faults and Mistakes , even greater Courage to apologize for it and change. Mandela shall be known for that.



aside that, can someone please tweet/post/ shout or whatever to Ramsey and tell him to stop scoring. FFS the guy's history with scoring goals is becoming rather unnerving .

[Deleted]

Ive just seen the african dyslexic association laying flowers outside the Nissan Main Dealers.