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Post by Monty on May 18, 2017 13:06:58 GMT
I read this morning that Trump has said that no politician in history has been treated worse than him. I just about choked on my Coco pops. He might want to have a word with the Kennedy brothers. Oh he can't because they were fucking shot dead. Putting aside all the politicians who have been assassinated, imprisoned, persecuted or whatever. Nothing has been thrown at Trump that is worse than Trump himself threw at Obama. He just doesn't live in the real world. |
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Post by . on May 18, 2017 16:53:14 GMT
Nelson Mandela got kind of a rough ride too, if I remember correctly.
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Post by JamBritRed on May 18, 2017 17:44:02 GMT
Trump is such a fucking child. It's scary. ...He is thus the all-time record-holder of the Dunning-Kruger effect, the phenomenon in which the incompetent person is too incompetent to understand his own incompetence. Trump thought he’d be celebrated for firing James Comey. He thought his press coverage would grow wildly positive once he won the nomination. He is perpetually surprised because reality does not comport with his fantasies.... this has to be one of the best descriptions of the man. By George i will be scouse borrowing that, so don't be surprised to see it in my signature. |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 20:17:20 GMT
CNN Reporter...  |
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Post by Stew on May 18, 2017 20:22:21 GMT
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Post by Stew on May 18, 2017 20:25:35 GMT
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Post by Bestie on May 18, 2017 21:04:11 GMT
Nelson Mandela got kind of a rough ride too, if I remember correctly. Not the first time I've seen this since Trump came out with that bollocks. Mandela's MK were responsible for about 7, 000 deaths, many of them civilian; he was a communist, mates with Gaddafi and Castro, and he basically even admitted he used to be a terrorist. Somehow he's still less of a bastard than Trump. |
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Post by . on May 18, 2017 21:05:19 GMT
Nelson Mandela got kind of a rough ride too, if I remember correctly. Not the first time I've seen this since Trump came out with that bollocks. Mandela's MK were responsible for about 7, 000 deaths, many of them civilian; he was a communist, mates with Gaddafi and Castro, and he basically even admitted he used to be a terrorist. Somehow he's still less of a bastard than Trump. Oh yeah, that's all true. But I think you're forgetting what a lovely speaking voice he has. |
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Post by Stew on May 19, 2017 5:48:04 GMT
Nelson Mandela got kind of a rough ride too, if I remember correctly. Not the first time I've seen this since Trump came out with that bollocks. Mandela's MK were responsible for about 7, 000 deaths, many of them civilian; he was a communist, mates with Gaddafi and Castro, and he basically even admitted he used to be a terrorist. Somehow he's still less of a bastard than Trump. Reductive meet this post. Nothing about why Mandela was compelled to join the ANC? Nothing about why they had to resort to violence? About how they tried to follow Gandhi's example initially? I suppose they just loved blowing shit up, nothing to do with those lovely people in charge and their wonderful system of apartheid? How many deaths were they responsible for? How many lives did they make utterly miserable? The words 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' are separated by the perception of the person using it. I very much doubt anyone in my country would describe Michael Collins as a terrorist. Did he use acts of violence to achieve goals? Absolutely. Was he a terrorist? Not a fucking chance. |
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Post by Bestie on May 19, 2017 9:16:38 GMT
Not the first time I've seen this since Trump came out with that bollocks. Mandela's MK were responsible for about 7, 000 deaths, many of them civilian; he was a communist, mates with Gaddafi and Castro, and he basically even admitted he used to be a terrorist. Somehow he's still less of a bastard than Trump. Reductive meet this post. Nothing about why Mandela was compelled to join the ANC? Nothing about why they had to resort to violence? About how they tried to follow Gandhi's example initially? I suppose they just loved blowing shit up, nothing to do with those lovely people in charge and their wonderful system of apartheid? How many deaths were they responsible for? How many lives did they make utterly miserable? The words 'terrorist' and 'freedom fighter' are separated by the perception of the person using it. I very much doubt anyone in my country would describe Michael Collins as a terrorist. Did he use acts of violence to achieve goals? Absolutely. Was he a terrorist? Not a fucking chance. Without wanting to completely derail the thread, all I will say is that Apartheid was a disgrace, a moral outrage, and was allowed to go on by other nations of the world for far too long - of course it was. However the beginnings of Mandela's 'cause' were not simply race. That narrative is the one that has stuck over time but it is absolute fact that Mandela was a communist and a terrorist. The MK's anthem was, "Go safely Umkhonto. Umkhonto we Sizwe. We the members of the Umkhonto have pledged ourselves to kill them — kill the whites."; the guy who helped Mandela start the MK was a Russian terrorist. Mandela's aim was not the freedom of all South African people but the installation of a communist dictatorship. It's all in the original draft of 'A Long Walk To Freedom' that Mandela wrote in prison before it was later airbrushed. If anything is reductive it would be simplify Nelson Mandela as 'black winner against bad whites'. I'm not going to be drawn on Michael Collins. |
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US Politics
May 19, 2017 9:29:15 GMT
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Post by Stew on May 19, 2017 9:29:15 GMT
There's absolutely nothing to be drawn on Collins. Nothing. In my opinion. Because my perspective (and I may as well lay my cards on the table, a genuine close family link) is completely different to yours. Which is understandable given our respective backgrounds.
And I imagine that's probably the same for people of different backgrounds in South Africa. Maybe some, like you dismiss him as a commie terrorist. The vast majority of people have a very different opinion of him however.
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Post by Bestie on May 19, 2017 9:55:49 GMT
There's absolutely nothing to be drawn on Collins. Nothing. In my opinion. Because my perspective (and I may as well lay my cards on the table, a genuine close family link) is completely different to yours. Which is understandable given our respective backgrounds. And I imagine that's probably the same for people of different backgrounds in South Africa. Maybe some, like you dismiss him as a commie terrorist. The vast majority of people have a very different opinion of him however. That is not what I do/did. There is simply more to Nelson Mandela's story, as with every major historical or culturally significant figure, than the one-sided prevailing narrative. It is not a case of opinion or backgrounds or perspectives. It is looking at every part of the story. Take, as a vapid example, Becks. On the one hand he's a charitable, popular, pushed-past-sports-icon. On the other, he's an insincere, honours-chasing dillweed. The truth is he's probably a bit of both. EDIT: On Collins, my only view is thus: All 'political' murder is wrong. From all sides. That's my view of everything that has gone on in Ireland and Northern Ireland. I badly want everyone from both sides to get together just to agree on that one thing and move the hell on. |
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US Politics
May 19, 2017 10:00:08 GMT
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Post by Stew on May 19, 2017 10:00:08 GMT
There's absolutely nothing to be drawn on Collins. Nothing. In my opinion. Because my perspective (and I may as well lay my cards on the table, a genuine close family link) is completely different to yours. Which is understandable given our respective backgrounds. And I imagine that's probably the same for people of different backgrounds in South Africa. Maybe some, like you dismiss him as a commie terrorist. The vast majority of people have a very different opinion of him however. That is not what I do/did. There is simply more to Nelson Mandela's story, as with every major historical or culturally significant figure, than the one-sided prevailing narrative. It is not a case of opinion or backgrounds or perspectives. It is looking at every part of the story. Take, as a vapid example, Becks. On the one hand he's a charitable, popular, pushed-past-sports-icon. On the other, he's an insincere, honours-chasing dillweed. The truth is he's probably a bit of both. Fair enough but in your original post you made no mention of any of the other things, merely he was a commie, a terrorist and was part of an organisation that cost 7000 people their lives. There was no balance. |
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Post by Bestie on May 19, 2017 10:29:58 GMT
That is not what I do/did. There is simply more to Nelson Mandela's story, as with every major historical or culturally significant figure, than the one-sided prevailing narrative. It is not a case of opinion or backgrounds or perspectives. It is looking at every part of the story. Take, as a vapid example, Becks. On the one hand he's a charitable, popular, pushed-past-sports-icon. On the other, he's an insincere, honours-chasing dillweed. The truth is he's probably a bit of both. Fair enough but in your original post you made no mention of any of the other things, merely he was a commie, a terrorist and was part of an organisation that cost 7000 people their lives. There was no balance. Everyone knows the other side of the story is only reason. Fewer know about the rest of it. Blame my borderline epistemophilia. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 10:36:27 GMT
Fair enough but in your original post you made no mention of any of the other things, merely he was a commie, a terrorist and was part of an organisation that cost 7000 people their lives. There was no balance. Everyone knows the other side of the story is only reason. Fewer know about the rest of it. Blame my borderline epistemophilia. I finally get to see the word epistemophollia in a football forum. What a time to be alive. |
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