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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 18:55:32 GMT
We all love trophies, and they are important for creating a winning mentality. Still, for me the league is a far better indication for progress than winning a cup. You don’t fluke a league position. You can’t ignore consistent improvement in league position across three seasons. Unless you’re biased of course, and you dismiss this based on a penalty shootout or your strikers having an off day in a cup tie. Not a single person in their right mind would argue that Ole is better than Klopp. Ole is not as experienced, and was lucky to get the job in the first place. He may not bring us to the promised land again- overtaking City in this no-rule climate is extremely tough, particularly with the structure of our club, but the treatment he gets from some of our own is unwarranted. I was very proud of the backing he got from our away support this afternoon. Good that the fans are back in the stadiums for some perspective. Utd’s away fans would back Ted Lasso if he got the gig. It’s what they do. It’s admirable in a way but it can also let these lecherous owners off the hook as they seem to be swayed by them. Had they not backed Moyes we might have pulled the plug far earlier for example. They backed Van Gaal too despite him putting most of them to sleep. The romance of Ole doing well at Utd is appealing, it really is. I’d love him to succeed at Utd. I desperately wanted him to win the Europa League. But there are far too many performances like today to convince me he can even properly challenge for the league, let alone win it. There are at least 3 significantly better managers than him in the league. And they have similar squads, better in the case of City. So what do we expect to happen, realistically? Realistically, we can expect finishing above them, which we have. Realistically, and that will continue after Ole is gone, I expect us to push the others for the scrapes City leave in the next two decades unless strict financial rules are applied.
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Post by Stew on Aug 22, 2021 18:57:57 GMT
Utd’s away fans would back Ted Lasso if he got the gig. It’s what they do. It’s admirable in a way but it can also let these lecherous owners off the hook as they seem to be swayed by them. Had they not backed Moyes we might have pulled the plug far earlier for example. They backed Van Gaal too despite him putting most of them to sleep. The romance of Ole doing well at Utd is appealing, it really is. I’d love him to succeed at Utd. I desperately wanted him to win the Europa League. But there are far too many performances like today to convince me he can even properly challenge for the league, let alone win it. There are at least 3 significantly better managers than him in the league. And they have similar squads, better in the case of City. So what do we expect to happen, realistically? Realistically, we can expect finishing above them, which we have. Realistically, and that will continue after Ole is gone, I expect us to push the others for the scrapes City leave in the next two decades unless strict financial rules are applied. Let’s see how we do now that Tuchel will(have his own players and longer to work with them. And let’s see how we do if Klopp doesn’t suffer a ridiculous injury crisis.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 18:58:34 GMT
This manager makes decisions that are going to benefit the club long-term. He’s not on Pep’s budget, so he can’t replace in one window all the shit that was brought here by his elite predecessors. He’s risking his own position, and may not even be the most popular figure on internet message boards. I read here that we had a title-winning squad last season, and now we have Varane and Sancho too. Fuck me, the fucking state of the squad that he inherited from Jose two and a half years ago…and who is credited for that? The squad he inherited from Jose still finished with a higher points total than Ole has managed. I don’t buy the point total argument, comparing one season with another. Particularly considering the COVID seasons. Those were different from any other. We are not going to devalue league championships just because the point total wouldn’t have won them in other seasons.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:04:16 GMT
Realistically, we can expect finishing above them, which we have. Realistically, and that will continue after Ole is gone, I expect us to push the others for the scrapes City leave in the next two decades unless strict financial rules are applied. Let’s see how we do now that Tuchel will(have his own players and longer to work with them. And let’s see how we do if Klopp doesn’t suffer a ridiculous injury crisis. By all means, but please let’s do this while supporting our own even in the event that we’re proven wrong. Just a quick reminder, Touchel managed to not win the league with PSG last season. Klopp conceded 7 at Villa with VVD still in the heart of his defense. The scouse were unlucky with injuries last season, but we’re practically in off-season mode since the previous April, while we still played 2019-20 in mid-August
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Post by Stew on Aug 22, 2021 19:06:03 GMT
The squad he inherited from Jose still finished with a higher points total than Ole has managed. I don’t buy the point total argument, comparing one season with another. Particularly considering the COVID seasons. Those were different from any other. We are not going to devalue league championships just because the point total wouldn’t have won them in other seasons. Whether you buy it or not isn’t the point. The point is the group of players Ole inherited wasnt a complete disaster, which your post had suggested.
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Post by Stew on Aug 22, 2021 19:08:41 GMT
Let’s see how we do now that Tuchel will(have his own players and longer to work with them. And let’s see how we do if Klopp doesn’t suffer a ridiculous injury crisis. By all means, but please let’s do this while supporting our own even in the event that we’re proven wrong. Just a quick reminder, Touchel managed to not win the league with PSG last season. Klopp conceded 7 at Villa with VVD still in the heart of his defense. The scouse were unlucky with injuries last season, but we’re practically in off-season mode since the previous April, while we still played 2019-20 in mid-August Tuchel won the Champions League last season. I think that trumps what he did or didn’t do with PSG.
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Post by Bestie on Aug 22, 2021 19:32:13 GMT
Not winning things isn't progress. It quite simply is not progress. We all love trophies, and they are important for creating a winning mentality. Still, for me the league is a far better indication for progress than winning a cup. You don’t fluke a league position. You can’t ignore consistent improvement in league position across three seasons. Unless you’re biased of course, and you dismiss this based on a penalty shootout or your strikers having an off day in a cup tie. Not a single person in their right mind would argue that Ole is better than Klopp. Ole is not as experienced, and was lucky to get the job in the first place. He may not bring us to the promised land again- overtaking City in this no-rule climate is extremely tough, particularly with the structure of our club, but the treatment he gets from some of our own is unwarranted. I was very proud of the backing he got from our away support this afternoon. Good that the fans are back in the stadiums for some perspective. If you want to go by League 'progress' then look at the points total. How many times has that improved? Once? Which was an improvement in comparison with the manager's best, not the club's in recent seasons. And that in a season where all major title contenders were hampered for at least half a season for various reasons. We were miles off winning the League last season. Absolute miles. Progress only counts if you win things. Without trophies 'progress' is just failure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:37:30 GMT
I don’t buy the point total argument, comparing one season with another. Particularly considering the COVID seasons. Those were different from any other. We are not going to devalue league championships just because the point total wouldn’t have won them in other seasons. Whether you buy it or not isn’t the point. The point is the group of players Ole inherited wasnt a complete disaster, which your post had suggested. No it didn’t. DDG, Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku and even Lingard are not a complete disaster. They were part of a considerably inferior squad to what we have today. Ole has done very well to improve the squad. I hope he’s lucky enough to reap the reward. His successor will inherit a squad in a much better state than he did.
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Post by Bestie on Aug 22, 2021 19:37:53 GMT
The squad he inherited from Jose still finished with a higher points total than Ole has managed. I don’t buy the point total argument, comparing one season with another. Particularly considering the COVID seasons. Those were different from any other. We are not going to devalue league championships just because the point total wouldn’t have won them in other seasons. We haven't won any League championships to devalue. Either you can compare League seasons, all of them, or you can't. You don't get to pick one good aspect but then say, 'Oh no that negative thing doesn't count'.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:39:26 GMT
By all means, but please let’s do this while supporting our own even in the event that we’re proven wrong. Just a quick reminder, Touchel managed to not win the league with PSG last season. Klopp conceded 7 at Villa with VVD still in the heart of his defense. The scouse were unlucky with injuries last season, but we’re practically in off-season mode since the previous April, while we still played 2019-20 in mid-August Tuchel won the Champions League last season. I think that trumps what he did or didn’t do with PSG. Fair play. Avram Grant was a John Terry away from winning that too
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Post by Bestie on Aug 22, 2021 19:39:40 GMT
Whether you buy it or not isn’t the point. The point is the group of players Ole inherited wasnt a complete disaster, which your post had suggested. No it didn’t. DDG, Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku and even Lingard are not a complete disaster. They were part of a considerably inferior squad to what we have today. Ole has done very well to improve the squad. I hope he’s lucky enough to reap the reward. His successor will inherit a squad in a much better state than he did. A few posts ago you were complaining Ole didn't have the squad to properly compete for the title. Now he's done really well improving the squad. Which is it? Also - Lingard is shite. Shouldn't be near the club. Isn't title winning level. Any manager who picks him for a title-challenging side is an idiot.
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Post by viking22 on Aug 22, 2021 19:41:24 GMT
Jose came 2nd in the league and won the Europa League and League Cup. Even if the squad he left behind needed a refresh, Ole has been able to spend over £400 million as well as benefiting from the emergence of Greenwood and the growing maturity of Scotty and Rashford and getting a player the calibre of Cavani on a free.
And if you look over recent years Chelsea and Liverpool have both won the league in spite of City's dominance as well as both scooping up Champions League trophies. They didn't have perfect squads or even a perfect first XI. And signing Varane and Sancho have gone a long way towards addressing the remaining weaknesses in our team.
In an ideal world we'd also sign a CDM and a RB and another CB. But we've got a squad that is good enough to mount a proper title challenge and be positioned to benefit if Chelsea or Manchester City slip up and win one of the domestic cups and get at least to the QF of the Champions League. But I cannot see us achieving any of those targets under Ole.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:47:58 GMT
We all love trophies, and they are important for creating a winning mentality. Still, for me the league is a far better indication for progress than winning a cup. You don’t fluke a league position. You can’t ignore consistent improvement in league position across three seasons. Unless you’re biased of course, and you dismiss this based on a penalty shootout or your strikers having an off day in a cup tie. Not a single person in their right mind would argue that Ole is better than Klopp. Ole is not as experienced, and was lucky to get the job in the first place. He may not bring us to the promised land again- overtaking City in this no-rule climate is extremely tough, particularly with the structure of our club, but the treatment he gets from some of our own is unwarranted. I was very proud of the backing he got from our away support this afternoon. Good that the fans are back in the stadiums for some perspective. If you want to go by League 'progress' then look at the points total. How many times has that improved? Once? Which was an improvement in comparison with the manager's best, not the club's in recent seasons. And that in a season where all major title contenders were hampered for at least half a season for various reasons. We were miles off winning the League last season. Absolute miles. Progress only counts if you win things. Without trophies 'progress' is just failure. I’ll try to make my point clearer. 2019-20 stopped than restarted. 2020-21 started with no real preparation and was played behind closed doors. This probably had substantial effect on results (our strange home and away records last season are good examples). I therefore think comparing points total across seasons is futile. On the other hand, league standings are the best comparative index as for how well a club did under given circumstances
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Post by Chris on Aug 22, 2021 19:49:10 GMT
How the fuck is Ole bringing Lingard on instead of VdB? Lingard shouldn't even be at the club. Bad line up, bad subs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 19:53:22 GMT
No it didn’t. DDG, Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku and even Lingard are not a complete disaster. They were part of a considerably inferior squad to what we have today. Ole has done very well to improve the squad. I hope he’s lucky enough to reap the reward. His successor will inherit a squad in a much better state than he did. A few posts ago you were complaining Ole didn't have the squad to properly compete for the title. Now he's done really well improving the squad. Which is it? Also - Lingard is shite. Shouldn't be near the club. Isn't title winning level. Any manager who picks him for a title-challenging side is an idiot. Why are these mutually exclusive? It’s not complete, but it’s getting there. Progress and process are not popular words here, unless we lose and then they make a sarcastic guest appearance. Lingard could be an important member of the squad, if he accepts the role. You don’t win titles with 11 players. Sir Alex picked Jesper fucking Blomquist for a Champions League final, and we’ll agree he wasn’t a fool
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