|
|
Post by tommyred on May 25, 2011 11:07:23 GMT
lol.
Not even worth discussing it.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 25, 2011 13:57:37 GMT
Right out the gate I want to make it clear the problem in WWE is not simply Cena, but the WWE itself. McMahon has taken his dad's dream and bastardised it to such an extent that it's basically unrecognisable to the original product.. yeah i agree, i hate the product, it's lazy and unsophisticated and a spit in the face of people who like pro-wrestling, the product prob died around the time JBL won the world title, which was a time they started to restrain what the wrestlers were doing in the ring, they were asked to wrestle a 'WWE TV style' and to cut out a lot of the high spots and risky moves that had been tearing the house down, suddenly the matches look basic and childish. Tazz said its like the business had regressed 20 years, Jerry Lawler said it was up to the commentators to tell a story of what's going on in the ring. You decide who you agree with, but i like a mixture of both styles. I don't expect a ROH spot-fest from the top to the bottom of the card but those who can 'go' - i wanna see them go. Some great talent has been released from WWE because they are restricted from doing what will get them over, which is tear it up in the ring, guys who aren't gonna get over by just giving them a gimmick. My issue with Cena is that he represents the shit product WWE has become. I think it's most likely down a lack of decent competition, but that's no reason for Cena to be as poor as he is. There are talented guys in the lockerroom who if given a chance could really be special, yet everytime the title comes up for grabs, Cena wins. Like I said before, it's predictable and stale. Even when they only had one World Heavyweight title, it never seemed as predictable as it is today.. It's the lack of stars, it's crippling. If he had better heels to fight it would be ok. If there were other babyfaces to share the belt between that would be ok too, there just isn't. If you think there are people better placed than him to be in the top of the card, then who? Cena's the flagship poster boy, so it's clear he'll get pushed. Except he's boring. The fact that he gets boos at all when making the 'big comeback' goes to show how many people can recognise how poor he is. But that's not even my point. You argue he can sell the comeback, fine. Looking a hero in the face of adversity is the easiest thing to do in the ring. Taking a pummelling and making people actually believe you're getting pummelled to the point of defeat is the hard part. Cena can't do that. As I said, when The Rock took a beating, you didn't know if it was going to be one of those times he would kick out at 2, or get beaten. With Cena, you're always expecting the kick out. Followed by, invariably: shoudler block, spinning backdrop, 5 knuckle shuffle, F-U/Attitude thing. WITHOUT FAIL. Maybe swap in an STF(U) once in a while. And his execution is poor on the really basic stuff. Look at, what is essentially, a fist drop, and he can't make it look real. Ideal example really. I don't believe you need a whole back catelogue of moves to be good. I just think you have to do the stuff you do have, right. this is a matter of opinion really. I think he sells well and makes a firey comeback which is what a match is built around. Heel gets heat through beating on the babyface, til the babyface makes a storming comeback. I think he sells just fine. As for his execution of moves, yeah he's got that rugged, unrefined look about his execution but as far as i'm aware he's never hurt anybody, and it's just his style. Goldberg had a few big moves and that was all he was about, but he was insanely over, and should have been the world champion that no-one could ever beat in his WCW days. As for the booing...watch PPV's like Mania vs Triple H, and One Night Stand vs van dam, the crowd LOVED to boo him. The atmosphere was electric, it was a spectacle, it was great fun to watch. He was the most over guy on the roster in a fairly unique way, but make no mistake he was massively over. It was pay-money-to-boo-him heat, not heat you'd dish out to someone you didn't care to see at all, they used to call it x-pac heat back in the day although i think that's unfair, anyway WWE ran with it, Cena won legit respect for being able to run with it to without changing who he is. The business was changing and he was the top dog and fans were skeptical. That's all it was. These days the booing is a bit half-arsed because he's earned respect whether people want to admit it or not Cena should turn heel. Most grown-ups hate him anyway, it might help if he rolled with it. Look at Hollywood Hogan and the reaction when that gimmick came back round to the yellow and red. no chance, unless the business and the product radically turns around turning him heel would be suicidal. A heel is only as good as the babyfaces he's up against. Turn him heel and who is the top face? Orton is not a true babyface as you say. I can't think of anyone else who could be THE face of WWE. It would be near-unbookable. Look what happened in the fall-out of mania 17, austin turned heel, the rock left for hollywood, and WWE's lost its 2 big babyfaces. Triple H could have been the babyface against austins heel, but they swerved us on raw the night after mania and they joined forces in the power trip. What was the top babyfaces to feud with them? Taker and Kane. The product went from red hot to mediocre in 48 hours because of terrible booking. not only that, but they can't afford to turn him heel. he draws in massive revenue on merch, he's the ambassador for the company outside the ring and he does untolds for charities, including i've heard it said he's made over 200 make-a-wish appearances for dying kids. he's a legit stand-up sort of geezer from what i can gather who works his arse off with a legit passion for wrestling he's had since he was a kid Plus, 'E have been lacking a really top level heel for ages, Orton has become an Austin-ish heel/face, and Del Rio is raw, forgive the pun. Cena could do that I think. It would prove either way if it's just the writing shoving him down our throats as a walking talking legend that makes him look bad, or if he really can't sell losing and getting beat up on the big occasions. CM Punk is the best heel in the business today, he should be getting pushed to the moon, he's not, its bollocks. |
|
|
|
Post by tommyred on May 25, 2011 15:08:01 GMT
Spit in the face of people who like pro wrestling? Jesus.
This is why I hate wrestling debates. People are so over the top.
I think today's product is perfectly fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 25, 2011 15:12:30 GMT
they've banned the word 'wrestling' . says it all. if you like the product, great, i think it stinks and i've been watching since the early 90s, i'm not new to it thinking it started and finished in the attitude era, don't get me wrong
can't see how me and best have got OTT really,this is a wrestling thread where people go to talk about wrestling, i'd be well interested to hear why you rate WWE these days. he's given an argument why cena sucks balls, i've given my argument why he doesn't, while i think we are both critical of WWE in general, all is perfectly fair as far as i can see
|
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on May 25, 2011 17:44:28 GMT
they've banned the word 'wrestling' . says it all. if you like the product, great, i think it stinks and i've been watching since the early 90s, i'm not new to it thinking it started and finished in the attitude era, don't get me wrong can't see how me and best have got OTT really,this is a wrestling thread where people go to talk about wrestling, i'd be well interested to hear why you rate WWE these days. he's given an argument why cena sucks balls, i've given my argument why he doesn't, while i think we are both critical of WWE in general, all is perfectly fair as far as i can see Sums it up. I began watching in about '96, so a couple of years before the Attitude era and been watching fairly religiously then sporadically since. Watched WCW too, back in the day. But I kinda fell into a geeky sort of love with the whole thing, and have ended up trawling back and getting old WWF PPV's, e.g. most of the 'Mania's, a lot of WCW's stuff from the late 80's. I've learnt my history and appreciate the changes the business has gone through. The current product is stomach wrenchingly poor. Oh, and I've been to house shows where Cena's been booed out of the place. We didn't go because we wanted to boo him. We booed him because he was terrible! I love the idea of Punk being the main heel. If the story was Cena vs. Punk, with Punk maintaining a slight upper-hand most of the time (maybe work the New Nexus thing, though I can't see it), I'd be all for it. I simply cannot understand the push of Del Rio to RAW then have him feuding with Mysterio Jnr.. Everyone can recognise Mysterio Jnr's work ethic but he isn't big enough to legit be a top card draw. WWE ain't in Mexico and when Lucha's start to beat the big guys on a consistent basis (Rey becoming WHC just because Eddie died for example) the whole thing really does look fake. On the question of who could be top face, if he does come back, Jericho. Y2J is so ridiculously talented in comparison to the rest of the roster (maybe barring Punk, and in terms of actual in-ring quality, Ziggler) that he could easily pull off the top face role. From within the company, I'd love to see more of DH Smith, and I can't shake the feeling Ziggler could be a proper star if he was allowed to be. But the guy who should have the top face spot if Cena was top heel, would be Christian. The guy is a terrific worker and generally makes eveybody look good. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 25, 2011 18:14:12 GMT
it's all about the geeky love. same as me, i watch a lot of old-skool stuff online and on dvd's etc. (incidentally, the macho man dvd set is on special offer on silvervision.co.uk for 6.99 til 10am 2mo) loved a bit of WCW too til late 98/99. there's been little to get excited about in WWE since 2006ish sort of time, minus takers wrestlemania feuds and a few other bits and pieces. be interesting to hear what tommy rates about the modern product to be honest
Jericho is a talented mofo, gotta say i love his heel act, not sure he'd work as a face again, they turned him heel and changed his character in his last run cos he wasnt connecting as a babyface...BUT he has said that since the miz has nicked his calm-talking-heel-in-a-suit gimmick, if he comes back he will tweak his character again, so we'll see
i like Del Rios entrance, some epic shit that is. they are doing the old ram him down your throat routine but so far so good i guess, time will tell if they cock it up. They dropped the ball so badly with Sheamus, and apparantly just cos Kevin Dunn doesn't like him. fuck you Kevin Dunn, everyone else liked him u cunt
other than that i don't know what the companys got in store. i can't even be arsed to watch clips of raw on the net these days, have a quick read of spoilers and that'll do
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 25, 2011 18:17:00 GMT
an amusing vid with cornette and bearer ripping on kevin dunn
|
|
|
|
Post by Tatty on May 25, 2011 21:09:02 GMT
Spit in the face of people who like pro wrestling? Jesus. This is why I hate wrestling debates. People are so over the top. I think today's product is perfectly fine. This. The Attitude era killed wrestling. This is a fact. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 26, 2011 20:43:31 GMT
how can u agree with tommy that todays product is fine, then say the attitude era killed wrestling. two contradictory statements there.
the attitude era didn't kill wrestling, it's generally accepted that the attitude era was over in 2001 after mania 17, then the product was excellent right up until the mid-2000s.
there are a number of factors that have contributed to the state of play today, and an attitude era fall-out is way down the bottom of the list if it's on it at all, but you say it is 'fact' so lets hear it ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Tatty on May 28, 2011 12:10:47 GMT
how can u agree with tommy that todays product is fine, then say the attitude era killed wrestling. two contradictory statements there. the attitude era didn't kill wrestling, it's generally accepted that the attitude era was over in 2001 after mania 17, then the product was excellent right up until the mid-2000s. there are a number of factors that have contributed to the state of play today, and an attitude era fall-out is way down the bottom of the list if it's on it at all, but you say it is 'fact' so lets hear it ? They're not contradictory statements at all. Todays WWE output is ok to great. People, casual viewers, think it's shit because of the Attitude era, hence the Attitude era killing wrestling. Also, the Attitude era ended when Benoit went a bit mental 5 years ago. |
|
|
|
Post by Supatrice> on May 28, 2011 22:02:11 GMT
Benoit killing his family was well after the end of the attitude era.
The reason WWE'S product is so stale is because they don't have any real competition since buying WCW. The PG product isn't the problem, because it was pretty much PG before 1996/7 and always did really well. Saying fuck over and over doesn't make a good wrestling show, if it did Paul Haymen would still be in business with ECW.
It will take some major investment in one of the smaller territories to get some real compition, I lost hope in TNA after the past few years. They were decent and then they turned to help from the major reasons WCW failed. Hogan, Bischoff, Nash and Russo!
|
|
|
|
Post by Supatrice> on May 28, 2011 22:04:51 GMT
And I agree massivley with "Jimbonda" that it's also a problem that they have restricted what the wrestlers can and can't do in the ring. No, you shouldn't have Mick Foley like stunts every week but they should let the wrestlers take care of the wrestlers, not the writers. And let the talent cut their own promos!
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 29, 2011 10:02:42 GMT
ah a bit of wrestling talk, a welcome distraction from the football.
yeah agree with patrice, the attitude era is generally regarded as ending at mania 17. Explain when wrestling was dead then tatty, cos u said attitude era killed it, but now it's good-great, so when was it dead?
tatty mate, people don't think wrestlings shit now just because it's not the attitude era. i know when you watch clips on youtube and that, that people make lots of comments about missing the attitude era, but a large section of the attitude demographic was still in tact til at least 2004, when i feel the WWE had a product to rival the attitude era, (lets call it the A.E.), once WWE put the botched Invasion angle behind them
as pat touched on, from about 2004-2005 onwards, the in ring style has been slowed right down, the promos are over-scripted, in general the whole thing is massively over-produced. The consensus among many of the veterans is that no-one 'works' anymore, they 'perform', difference being that when you 'work' you listen to what the crowd is and isn't responding to and work with it. when you 'perform' you run with what's been drawn out behind the curtain, regardless of whether the fans are into it or not. same with the wooden, generic promos. People learned to talk in the past cos they were told, you two are having a match, go out and talk and sell some tickets. at the absolute most, they'd be asked to mention this or touch on that, the rest is up to you. thats it.
but that represents an element of risk, and the company doesn't generally take risks anymore, everything is safety first
Fair play though if you're enjoying it, thats all that matters i spose, i'll continue to read spoilers and watch the rumble and mania, at least til taker is retired. after that there is NOTHING left for me. I was excited about Sheamus, he could be a huge star, but that prick in production Kevin Dunn has taken a massive shit on him. That was the last fucking straw for me
|
|
|
|
Post by Tatty on May 29, 2011 17:20:29 GMT
Eurgh!
I'll write an essay in a few weeks when I have more than one hand.
In other news:
Mexico's top rudo, Averno, has signed with WWE after they've been unhappy with Sin Cara's in ring work.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on May 29, 2011 17:29:57 GMT
Mexico's top rudo, Averno, has signed with WWE after they've been unhappy with Sin Cara's in ring work. what a surprise. he tears it up outside of WWE, then goes to WWE and is hamstrung by having to work a WWE style - and they don't like it. you couldn't make this shit up |
|
