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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Jun 19, 2012 14:05:35 GMT
Hmm, tricky one.
Bale is 22 while Nani is 25.
One could say Bale can get much better if, according to stats, he's on par with Nani already?
Either way, Nani has to stay. The only way it'd not weaken the team if he leaves is if we had Bale, which we don't.
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Post by redcase on Jun 19, 2012 14:22:25 GMT
Bestie, the stats show that even at inconsistency, Nani trumps Bale. Stop and consider the price tag here. Gareth Bale will be priced at 35 million by Levy. Are you kidding me? For that output in assists and goals, how is it justifiable? Besides, Bale , imo, is a one-trick pony. Now you could argue that Nani has too many tricks at times, but he does give the opposition something to think about. With Bale, its not much really, just cut off the space to him and its pretty much stagnant stuff. I still remember Rafael and Park nullifying Gareth Bale when we creamed them at home. It is pretty easy to shut Bale out of the game tactically. While you can argue that Nani shuts himself off during some games, I still think he is a much better player technically.
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Post by redcase on Jun 19, 2012 14:25:30 GMT
Both have their merits, but letting go of Nani for Bale is out of the question for me at least. Bale is a very good player, but Nani is better and a swap between them would have me gutted.
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Post by ginger18legend on Jun 19, 2012 15:19:13 GMT
I'll have to side with Bestie here. Bale for Nani is a no brainer. The fallacy in those stats is that Nani plays for United and Bale for Spurs. If Bale has been able to play well in a weaker team, he'll definitely come on leaps and bounds with United. Its no coincidence that he's in the midst of a transfer tug-of-war between Real and Barca. The boy is quality, no two ways about it.
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Post by mightyez on Jun 19, 2012 15:35:52 GMT
fergie wont allow him that nonsense of coming inside, he will play valencia videos and say thats what i want you to do he can play a bit though. wouldn't want him just putting balls in from the byline. he's a top player and i think he'd be a match winner for us i know mate but he is a different man on the wings, sometimes a beast |
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Post by mightyez on Jun 19, 2012 15:37:32 GMT
also bale at 35 million??
i tell you now fergie would be all over it at that price.
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Post by Bestie on Jun 19, 2012 15:58:52 GMT
I'm not saying that Nani can't be, at times, a great player. He can. On rare occasions when he engages his brain and matches that with his natural technical ability, he can be very, very good. But it's too rare and I hate to bang on about it but when he doesn't show up he really doesn't show up.
A Nani off day means a more difficult day for everyone else, possession pissed away far too easily, and chances for a final incisive pass spurned, and the flow of an attack laboured and stilted. Defensively our right or left back suddenly has to deal with an over-lapping oppo full-back everytime the other team attack. Nani doesn't cover back, anywhere close to being nearly enough. The gifting possesion away puts us under pressure.
Compare Nani for example, to Rooney. On Rooney off day, his touch can be utterly shit, the accuracy and weight of his passing can be a bit of a joke for a world class player really, and he can generally be bypassed. But Rooney is almost never a wasted name on the teamsheet, because when he has a stinker he can still pop up with a goal, and if not, he still runs his heart out, tracks back, goes looking for the ball and tries to work himself out of the poor performance. Ronaldo did it for us too. Nani doesn't. Nani wanders about, and when he gets the ball his decision making is a disgrace.
That's how I judge players. When they're having a bad'un, how do they react?
Bale, I don't know. Would Bale in a United shirt be a Nani sort on a bad day, or a Rooney? All I do know is that for all the failings in the British way of teaching football, there aren't usually a lot of sulking, stroppy, diva, gits.
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Post by fletchabey on Jun 19, 2012 16:36:20 GMT
You're still talking nonsense. Who doesnt get annoyed with anybody having an off day. I think its fair to say United only truly have 1 consistent player, Carrick. Even then he has dips but usually exits them and performs solidly for 3/4 of the season. Even Rooney has absolute mares a few times in the season. You choose to ignore hard stats and then make up stuff about 7/10 performance and 3/10 performances to suit yourself. try and bring something less made up and subjective to the table. Saying Nani only has 1 good game in 4 is a load of rubbish and if you properly reflect on that you'd probably realise that yourself. You're talking about the guy who is pretty much the most directly creative player in the league. If his decision making is that bad then what the hell are all these other players, including our own wingers, doing that he still scoring and creating more than them? Fallacy in the stats is laughable, that's just ignoring them to suit your own agenda.
Also I highly disagree on that he doesn't turn up in big games. Unlike Ronaldo this guy can tuck away a penalty when it matters most, unless scoring in a CL final doesn't count. Then there's his performance against Bayern the following year, he was absolutely shit hot that night and ran his heart out for a 10 man team. That was the day he really blossomed into the player he is now. Its amazing how underrated he is by some United fans. And some people want to trade our second most important and talented player, for some over-hyped slightly more talented, significantly more unproven left footed version of Valencia. Its absolutely ludicrous.
If people say they want him deliver more week in week out, fair enough (Name me more wingers in the world that do though). If he did he'd be one of the minute few in the world that could get close to Messi and Ronaldo. And some people want to get rid of him, i only see it as clueless. We should be building a team around him and getting the very best out of him.
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 19, 2012 16:43:42 GMT
Bale, I don't know. Would Bale in a United shirt be a Nani sort on a bad day, or a Rooney? All I do know is that for all the failings in the British way of teaching football, there aren't usually a lot of sulking, stroppy, diva, gits. i'm convinced of Bale. look at that performance against Inter, and i'm talking goals aside. when spurs looked overawed and out of their depth, down to ten weren't they after what 10 mins and 4 nil down after about half an hour, Bale was stepping up and taking responsibility, left his spot out wide and roamed around the pitch wanting the ball, doubling up and giving his mates support, just seemed to grow when everyone else was folding and became the focal point. it was a telling display. if he'd not have gone on and scored it would still have been something special, but he hit 3 mint goals and all! said it loads of times, it's not about signing another winger, or upgrading one of our wingers. it's about a beast of a player who is a United player in the wrong fucking shirt. i reckon he'd find a consistency and be a match winner. and you talk about a fear factor and that's true as well |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 19, 2012 16:45:30 GMT
We should be building a team around him i'm a fan of Nani but this is a bit unlikely! |
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Post by fletchabey on Jun 19, 2012 16:57:06 GMT
Actually I think we are anyway and I'll probably be proven right or wrong on that by the start of the next season if we begin to line up consistently something like - Nani Kagawa Welbeck/Young ..............Rooney I think Fergie loved what he saw when we played the 4-2-3-1 in pre-season and the first half a dozen games of last season. Kagawa gives us more options to play like that and if we setup like that Nani WILL start. Left or right wont matter, not that anyone's brought up the myth Nani cant play as well on the left, yet  . If we consistently start without a fit Nani you can call me out. |
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Post by redcase on Jun 19, 2012 17:04:28 GMT
Jimbo, mate, I could bring up a gajillion other times when Bale has performed like shite when it mattered most. That's precisely why Gareth Bale's stock went up. One game. Against Inter. Against an absolute shite Inter managed by a shite fucking fat waiter. Benitez had his tactics all wrong that night, and it was plain to see. I have seen Bale look absolutely ordinary against Wigan and Sunderland etc. There we are banging on about Valencia and how great he was last season, he only got 3 more assists than Nani and 4 FEWER goals. How does it make sense then to say Nani is inconsistent and Valencia is Mr. Consistent and even worse, how does it make ANY sense to say that Bale would be better than Nani? And before anybody mentions Valencia being injured, let me inform you that Nani played only 2 MORE GAMES than Valencia in the Prem last season. It makes no sense. Cheers fletch for backing me up here, I thought I was alone  |
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 19, 2012 17:05:03 GMT
even if he starts all the time i don'tt see how we are building a team around him..
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Post by jimbonda on Jun 19, 2012 17:07:53 GMT
Jimbo, mate, I could bring up a gajillion other times when Bale has performed like shite when it mattered most. no you couldn't, he's not had that many bad games. i've heard people say he was shite when he's been fine. he went up on a pedestal after Inter (and you can talk about how shite inter were and how shit benitez is but they were killing spurs) and i reckon people are harsh on him. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 19, 2012 17:07:56 GMT
You're still talking nonsense. Who doesnt get annoyed with anybody having an off day. I think its fair to say United only truly have 1 consistent player, Carrick. Even then he has dips but usually exits them and performs solidly for 3/4 of the season. Even Rooney has absolute mares a few times in the season. You choose to ignore hard stats and then make up stuff about 7/10 performance and 3/10 performances to suit yourself. try and bring something less made up and subjective to the table. Saying Nani only has 1 good game in 4 is a load of rubbish and if you properly reflect on that you'd probably realise that yourself. You're talking about the guy who is pretty much the most directly creative player in the league. If his decision making is that bad then what the hell are all these other players, including our own wingers, doing that he still scoring and creating more than them? Fallacy in the stats is laughable, that's just ignoring them to suit your own agenda. Didn't mention any fallacy pal, that was someone else. I'm saying there are good stats, but while Nani had a stand-out season two rounds ago, it isn't like he has completely out-stripped an ever-improving Bale year on year. My point about one good performance and three bad doesn't mean in a row, I mean over the course of a season that's what it works out at. Most importantly, and this is the bit you have completely missed, I'm not even complaining that Nani has off-days. I'm complaining about how he handles them. The diving comes back, the decision making goes out the window, and his overall performance is terrible. Not 'had a bit of a poor game' bad, but simply terrible. He becomes a liability. Also I highly disagree on that he doesn't turn up in big games. Unlike Ronaldo this guy can tuck away a penalty when it matters most, unless scoring in a CL final doesn't count. Then there's his performance against Bayern the following year, he was absolutely shit hot that night and ran his heart out for a 10 man team. That was the day he really blossomed into the player he is now. Its amazing how underrated he is by some United fans. And some people want to trade our second most important and talented player, for some over-hyped slightly more talented, significantly more unproven left footed version of Valencia. Its absolutely ludicrous. Again, I didn't say he doesn't turn up in the big games, I'm saying he was shite against City. Which is the barometer now, it has to be. Oh, and remind who scored our goal that night in the European Cup final you're talking about? Actually, don't bother 'cause it doesn't matter. EDIT: To say Bale is unproven is pretty out there in fairness. Yes, he's over-hyped a bit but he's obviously bloody quality. If people say they want him deliver more week in week out, fair enough (Name me more wingers in the world that do though). If he did he'd be one of the minute few in the world that could get close to Messi and Ronaldo. And some people want to get rid of him, i only see it as clueless. We should be building a team around him and getting the very best out of him. This is the other point you have completely missed. I actually don't want Nani gone. If you check in the "Nani" thread, you'll see that only for a huge whack of silly money would I think it's a good idea. In fact, if he really has lowered his wage demands twice, I'm pissed if we aren't giving him a new deal. I'm also not demanding Nani be off-the-charts good every game. I just want more of a positive contribution on the days he isn't. But if you offered me Gareth Bale or Nani, then it's a toss up that lands a lot of times for Bale. jim's right, Bale's wearing the wrong kit and if the chance presents itself we should go get him. For lots of reasons. Oh, and as for him 'only having a left foot', so does Ryan Giggs. |
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