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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Jun 14, 2013 10:44:17 GMT
Not really, Bestie. All I'm saying is I doubt there are giant threads debating and analyzing the validity of Messi's capabilities on other arbitrary clubs' forums. We lost two finals against them and Messi has prevented one of our own ex-players, a well loved one, from winning the Ballon D'or. 1+1 = ? If you look around the General Football/Sport section you'll see threads on plenty of other scandels and teams too. And threads evolve. This started out as one guy asking about the HGH and became a wider Barca thread. We have Euro and World Cup threads, European Cup threads, Promotion/relegation threads. Real Madrid keeping beating us in Europe and poached our best player for what turns out to be peanuts but we don't have a thread on them because most of us agree since the turn of the Century they have been hateful and bad for the game. There is no Real (excuse the pun) debate to be had. I suppose we could knock up one about the merits of their style of play? We all love United but most of us follow the game as a professional sport as well. It isn't that far-fetched for football-interested people to discuss football-related topics or stories of a moment. (e.g. Random Football Stories thread.) Totally understand that Bestie, I was merely speculating about the roots of this debate and its subsequent extrapolation into an ever-present source of activity. We probably have more reason than most clubs to harbor animosity towards Barca and Messi in general, or to be suspect of anything they're currently busy with. That was my point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 11:09:04 GMT
The difference with Messi and other people who need to take HGH is that most people generally don't have Barcelona paying for the treatment. Barcelona didn't do that out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it because they saw a wonderfully gifted youngster and thought "Wow, he's damn good. But apparently he won't grow beyond 5 feet? So he won't be physically able to play this sport? Well, we'll just give him enough drugs until he CAN physically play the sport. Jobs a good 'un" I don't see how there's a debate. If you cannot compete in a sport unless you take illegal drugs to make you do so, then you cannot compete in the sport. End of argument. If you need steriods to play a game, then you cannot play the game. Because you now have an unfair advantage over everyone else. He was born with an unfair disadvantage though, and the drugs levelled the field. OK, I'd love to be an Olympic sprinter but I was born white and slow, that's a disadvantage. So, I'll take enough drugs until I can run as fast as those fast black men. I'm only levelling the field. Why should I not be able to follow my sporting dream just because of the way I was born? THIS THIS THIS - have I ever said how much I respect your posts? well I do... they're ace! It's funny with the 'messi isnt really cheating' mob, I wonder how the feel about Lance Armstrong? I mean, surely using someone elses blood to gain an advantage is fair? right? Aw shucks  |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Jun 14, 2013 11:30:39 GMT
Perhaps the best way is to think about the "pros" and "cons" as separate issues and perhaps try not to judge the overall.
It's simpler with Lance Armstrong - (A) He was wrong to cheat to win trophies and money. Poor. (B) He set up a charitable organisation battling cancer with millions and millions of much needed cash injected into research. Good.
Lionel Messi - (A) He originally did not qualify to be a sportsman. You can say Barcelona cheated. Poor. (B) He required the drugs when young to survive (debatable until information is fully disclosed as to whether he required it to survive). Therefore, you can say he needed this drug to live. He entertains people. Good.
I'm neutral. To be honest I can't be arsed, but perhaps people are judging the subject too much and too categorically. The truth is whether you think he should or shouldn't be here doesn't alter the fact that he is here, you can't change the past, and he won't go away. If he's good, he's good. If he entertains people, let him entertain people.
I think the bigger problem is people seem to idolise or look up to others way too easily, and for the absolute wrong reasons, but that's a talk for another day.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 12:13:57 GMT
so he's hobbit-sized, which is pretty small, but he's also a tiny man?  yes, even hobbits call him 'tiny' |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 14, 2013 13:05:00 GMT
This line reminds me inexplicably of 0:19 seconds in. . .
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Post by Bestie on Jun 15, 2013 14:32:07 GMT
www.marca.com/2013/06/14/en/football/barcelona/1371223584.htmlFormer Argentina fitness coach sounds alarm"There is a risk Messi won't be 100% at the World Cup" Fitness coach Fernando Signorini, who formerly worked with the Argentina national team, has stated that Lionel Messi desperately needs a rest, otherwise he could suffer from burnout ahead of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil. "Before, in the 60s and 70s, players would play 80-90 matches a year, but [Messi], the number one in the world, is playing over 120 if you count Barcelona and the national team", he stated. "Messi had gone three years injury-free, but two and a half months ago he strained a muscle just before the first leg of the semi-final against Bayern Munich in Germany, and he was put back on the bench for the return leg. Then he got injured again and now he is being reduced to second-half cameos", he added. "What the wonderful player I have known since he was a kid needs is a holiday with his wife and son. With the demands of the modern game, it's impossible to play more than 100 games and still always be 100%", Signorini claimed. "Fitness coaches aren't always as necessary as people think. Admitting as much has got me into hot water with some of my esteemed colleagues before", Signorini noted. "Vicente Del Bosque recognised that a number of his players picked up fewer injuries when they did less training", he elaborated. "Groin strains are one of the most fashionable injuries today, but they never used to exist before. Many things happen now that we weren't aware of in the past because it used to be much more about a player's technique and playing style than about gruelling fitness work", he concluded. === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === Getting the excuses in very early, aren't they?
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Post by johnboy14 on Jun 15, 2013 17:42:07 GMT
Unless you know anything about his medical condition when he was a kid then you can't accuse him of being a drug cheat. Its an interesting discussion but It doesn't sit well with me when you hear people attributing his talent with drugs. The drugs helped accelerate his growth. If you've ever seen him in person he's the size of a small child still.
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Post by Bestie on Jun 15, 2013 19:10:54 GMT
I don't think anyone questions his abilty being connected to the drugs. It'a the size thing, he wouldn't have made it as a footballer without the treatments, which is where people start to struggle with the idea.
Where do you draw the line?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2013 19:28:31 GMT
I don't think anyone questions his abilty being connected to the drugs. It'a the size thing, he wouldn't have made it as a footballer without the treatments, which is where people start to struggle with the idea. Where do you draw the line? Hopefully not at the 5ft mark otherwise hes stuffed |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 15, 2013 19:49:19 GMT
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Post by SAF_Legend on Jun 15, 2013 22:07:08 GMT
As I mentioned before, I'm neutral but just a question that I would be interested in receiving responses to:
I guess someone or some people have mentioned this before: What about Abidal? Should he have just left football altogether since he had cancer? By right of nature, he should have perished and never returned as he succumbed to something that required external influence or help. Or perhaps taken the treatment, recovered but should have gone into retirement - is that what you would have preferred?
So, does this mean children who have GHD should just call it quits, and never do sports even if it's their dream, simply because they took a drug which helps them grow normally to survive.
Like Bestie says... where do you draw the line? How do you define one as cheating, and another as saving a life - or could the two co-exist?
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Post by johnboy14 on Jun 16, 2013 9:59:55 GMT
As I mentioned before, I'm neutral but just a question that I would be interested in receiving responses to: I guess someone or some people have mentioned this before: What about Abidal? Should he have just left football altogether since he had cancer? By right of nature, he should have perished and never returned as he succumbed to something that required external influence or help. Or perhaps taken the treatment, recovered but should have gone into retirement - is that what you would have preferred? So, does this mean children who have GHD should just call it quits, and never do sports even if it's their dream, simply because they took a drug which helps them grow normally to survive. Like Bestie says... where do you draw the line? How do you define one as cheating, and another as saving a life - or could the two co-exist? This is exactly how I feel about this issue. Comparing him to lance armstrong who simply used performance enhancing drugs to win is not the same as taking a drug to combat a physical growth problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 10:48:59 GMT
Although there is no proof to provide this, how do you not know that the drugs Messi has "supposedly taken" haven't enhanced his performance?
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Post by johnboy14 on Jun 16, 2013 11:25:16 GMT
Although there is no proof to provide this, how do you not know that the drugs Messi has "supposedly taken" haven't enhanced his performance? Messi had a HGH deficiency. We all produce HGH naturally, the difference is messi wasn't producing enough of it to grow and develop properly. Messi was given the treatment so he could develop properly, for medical reasons. Its only performance enhancing if you take it when you don't have a HGH deficiency to help increase muscle mass. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 16, 2013 12:07:04 GMT
On the Abidal thing - I think what is important is that nobody (I'm sure) has any problem with his medical treatments and then returning to football. That would enssentially be punishing him for not dying. Can't remember who it was but they mentioned something to do with the Abidal situation and I couldn't help thinking it was different.
The big question for me is this:
Was Messi going to die without the treatment? We don't know, might never know. However, we do know that a 5 foot person is going to have a much, much tougher time making it as a professional footballer than someone who's 5' 6. Say whatever you like about natural ability, the guy simply wouldn't have been playing football for Barcelona. Which leads me to the next important point, in my view. How many kids out there have an HGH deficency and aren't injected on a full regime of steroids for years to ensure they grow up to a relatively 'normal' height - kids who can't do good-looking things with a football? Or, how about the kids who can do impressive things with a football at their feet. Like Paul Scholes say. Would he have been a better player if he'd had steroid injections from a young age? (For the record, Paul Scholes is the best midfielder of his generation, so probably not, but he's just an example.) How about other strikers? Guiseppe Rossi is 5' 6, is there seriously a suggestion that he wouldn't benefit as a striker of having a bonus few inches to get his head on crosses? Goalkeepers having an exta couple of inches to reach that wonder-save in the top corner?
Just like some cyclists having a bit of better blood in their systems when competing in the Tour de France to pedal that little bit harder in the toughest sections of the race. That's where the comparison comes from.
I don't call Messi a 'drug-cheat', not out-right, and I've actually said before that I think a big part of fault lies with Barcelona for putting money and footballing gain over principles. Had the club decided they wanted to help this poor Argentine kid who had a genetic imbalance (not a disease) out of the charitable goodness in their collective hearts that would be laudable. But they didn't, they only did it because he was going to be a bloody good footballer. Second-best in the world in fact.
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