Man City, Man Utd, their rivals and the homegrown question
Former Manchester United player Rafael Da Silva criticised Manchester City for failing to produce and promote their own academy talent, unlike their derby rivals. Is that fair comment? Where do City and United stand in comparison to their big six rivals for promoting youth?
Compared to City, United have given three times as many first-team debuts to youth-team graduates over the last five seasons. Indeed, United have offered eight more debuts than the next biggest promoter of youth, Chelsea.
But Arsenal lead the way for academy graduates having the biggest involvement in the Premier League, with their home-grown talent enjoying over 30,000 minutes – the equivalent of 335 matches – more than Man City’s.
To qualify, players must have joined their club prior to turning 18 or represented their club’s youth team/Under-18s. Premier League appearances only…
Premier League debutants from academy/youth team since start of 2013/14
Man Utd 21 Chelsea 13 Liverpool 11 Arsenal 8 Tottenham 8 Man City 7
Premier League minutes played by their own academy graduates since start of 2013/14
Arsenal 32,056 Man Utd 30,138 Tottenham 22,288 Liverpool 17,334 Chelsea 12,245 Man City 1,868
Breakdown of academy graduate involvement per season (those in bold made their debut):
2013/14 – David Moyes, Ryan Giggs (In order of appearances) Adnan Januzaj, Tom Cleverley, Danny Welbeck, Rafael, Jonny Evans, Darren Fletcher, Ryan Giggs, Fabio, Tom Lawrence, James Wilson – 8974 minutes
2014/15 – Louis van Gaal Jonny Evans, Paddy McNair, Adnan Januzaj, Tyler Blackett, Rafael, Darren Fletcher, James Wilson, Tom Cleverley, Michael Keane, Danny Welbeck, Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Tom Thorpe – 5132 minutes
2015/16 – Louis van Gaal Jesse Lingard, Marcus Rashford, Cameron Borthwick-Jackson, Guillermo Varela, Paddy McNair, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, Adnan Januzaj, Andreas Periera, Donald Love, Nick Powell, James Wilson, Will Keane, James Weir – 4369 minutes
2016/17 – Man Utd – Jose Mourinho Paul Pogba, Marcus Rashford, Jesse Lingard, Axel Tuanzebe, Scott McTominay, Timothy Fosu-Mensah, Joel Periera, Demetri Mitchell, Josh Harrop, Angel Gomes – 6354 minutes
2017/18 (34 games) – Jose Mourinho Paul Pogba, Jesse Lingard, Marcus Rashford, Scott McTominay, Axel Tuanzebe – 5309 minutes
Total minutes – 30,138 Debutants – 21
2013/14 – Jose Mourinho John Terry, Tomas Kalas, Ryan Bertrand, Nathan Ake, John Swift – 3316 minutes
2014/15 – Jose Mourinho John Terry, Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Nathan Ake, Andreas Christensen, Isaiah Brown – 3593 minutes
2015/16 – Jose Mourinho, Guus Hiddink John Terry, Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Tammy Abraham, Fikayo Tomori, Jake Clarke-Salter – 2554 minutes
2016/17 – Antonio Conte John Terry, Nathaniel Chalobah, Nathan Ake, Rueben Loftus-Cheek, Ola Aina – 802 minutes
2017/18 (33 games) – Antonio Conte Andreas Christensen, Charly Musonda, Callum Hudson-Odoi, Jeremie Boga, Ethan Ampadu – 1980 minutes
Total minutes – 12,245 Debutants – 13
2013/14 – Brendan Rodgers Steven Gerrard, Raheem Sterling, Jon Flanagan, Martin Kelly, Brad Smith, Jordon Ibe – 7250 minutes
With all of the renewed debate about Jose Mourinho’s third seasons, and particularly that fateful final year at Chelsea that has drawn so many parallels with Manchester United now, there is genuinely one big myth.
It is not, however, what many might think. The myth is that Mourinho’s problems started with that third season, and the notorious controversy with Dr Eva Carneiro during the opening 2-2 draw with Swansea City. That incident really just brought things to a head, because the problems had actually started halfway through his second season – the title win.
That was when Mourinho began to complain about referees and scheduling way beyond the mention of anything else that the Chelsea squad thought it was “weird” and “obsessive”. A spell had been broken. They didn’t see his man-management as any way “special” any more, but needlessly oppressive, and increasingly tiresome.
It was so similar to what happened at Real Madrid and this is the real story of Mourinho’s career after all of those trophies, and something that may well be the defining storyline of United’s 2018/19 season. It is certainly what frames it, the question of whether the flip side of the Portuguese’s ferociously intense management will frag another third campaign.
From that perspective, the theory is a bit of a misnomer. It is not that Mourinho’s third season just happens to be where he has issues, it is that two years is about the point when the emotional intensity of his approach starts to naturally exhaust itself, when the connections that bind his teams start to come apart.
It would also be a mistake to conclude that the “freak” of the 2015/16 season is the only real example of this. It is just the most extreme, a perfect storm of negative developments, leading to the most incredibly imperfect of seasons for a top side.
But that’s also the thing. It was a campaign of unprecedented poor quality for a manager who had never finished below third since FC Porto, but that’s not to say there weren’t precedents from his third seasons.
The two before it ultimately saw many of the reasons that would result in Mourinho failing to win the title, and losing his job later that year. Even if neither of those with Chelsea 2006/07 and Real Madrid 2012/13 were anything like the 2015/16 collapse, they cannot just be dismissed, especially when many of the problems are present now.
The first is that causing the most headlines: transfers. Even if Mourinho has a very fair point about United’s recruitment and the need to at the very least improve the defence and wide players, the manner he does so takes it to extremes that just cause more problems. Those in power get irritated. That was precisely what happened with Roman Abramovich in 2006/07 and the summer of 2015, and that is what is starting to happen now with United. Sources say it is getting “testy”. It sometimes feels as if Mourinho makes such a point of this to make it known that he should not be blamed for any poor results that come, but some of his comments then just make those poor results self-fulfilling, a classic case of talking yourself into trouble.
They set the wrong tone for the season, creating excuses and instantly removing a side’s aura so that opposition sides suddenly go at them, sensing this vulnerability. If those results then do start to go wrong, the manager’s own comments have already created more a crisis out of them. It all feels like end-times doom… rather than just a bad game at the more unpredictable start of the season.
This really began in 2006/07, as a previously cast-iron Chelsea now felt so much more fragile, and there to be beaten in the league. Middlesbrough went at them and beat them in just the second game of that campaign. It can also conversely mean there is less sympathy from owners when bad results do come, and it is also known that players have been irritated by some media comments about the squads. Not all of the Chelsea players were unhappy when he left in 2007.
This plays into the second problem: Mourinho’s psychological management. This was previously much less complicated than it became. It used to be just that he used to demand such intensity from his players that they simply couldn’t keep up the same levels. It was impossible and was similarly seen at Chelsea and Real Madrid.
It was also seen at Internazionale...but Mourinho had by then gone. Rafa Benitez has always got criticism for his handling of that job but testimony since suggests that his biggest error was just taking it, as this was a team filled with players in their late 20s and early 30s who were coming off an emotional peak. There was always going to be a hangover.
At Madrid, however, there was never quite a party in the first place. The mood was edgy from the beginning, a series of winners just weren’t as open to Mourinho’s style for what was really the first time in his career, and one feeling was his response to that was too suffocating.
This was also when Pep Guardiola started to influence real change in the game, and many began to detect a change in Mourinho. His authority over players wasn’t as natural as it used to be, and he reacted in increasingly draconian ways.
This has become a more pronounced problem since Madrid. The emotional intensity of his teams has just given way to more intense emotion from the manager, where his response to almost every problem is hardline and hard criticism.
That is even harder to sustain, and has given rise at United to something especially seen at Madrid 2012 and Chelsea 2015: a tension between the playing staff and the manager; a mood of suffocation.
The Paul Pogba situation distils much of this, given he is United’s biggest star, and still has the biggest issues with Mourinho.
Those close to him felt there was no need for the manager’s latest comments, putting an unnecessary sour edge to the summer, for a player that had been in such a buoyant mood going into the new season.
It feels like it wouldn’t take too much for that blow up.
But that’s also a key point here. Part of the reason that Chelsea 2015/16 became what Antonio Conte infamously chided as “a Mourinho season” was because a spark was lit with the Dr Carneiro incident, igniting the gasoline left from so many other problems already there. Then it blew up.
That isn’t to say it will happen at United. Even if it feels like there are as many canisters of gasoline in place in the form of those problems inherent to a Mourinho third season, that doesn’t necessarily mean they will explode, because there still might not be the incident to ignite it.
Mourinho’s football also remains contained enough and resilient enough that United can again grind their way through a season, and gradually pick up confidence and rhythm.
It’s just that right now, going into a season opener against Leicester City where it feels like United really need a good result more than just finding their feet, everything is on edge.
That is the very hallmark of a Mourinho third season. And that's no myth. It's a big issue to be overcome. It is what will frame this season.
Comment I find most telling is comparison with Roman A. Totally wrong, in that he is an owner who wanted to win the title, I swear the Gimps do not really care that much, United is a cash Cow for them, and until the cash flow significantly starts to dry up, (which with global fan bases an TV money is not likely to
happen) will the owners pony up the funds to bring United back level with top teams where they belong?
Still such a beautiful game to watch, but I am not prepping for the game an raising hell for my neighbors to hear like I used to, and that is starting to
wear on me.
Feels almost like a regression instead of progression. Reckon I will get my newest grandkid some United Kit via mail order, take him out and about and
tell people who ask about it just why I am a fan of the club, and contribute what I can to the cause.
Maybe nickle of the money spent will go to the club an not a Glazer fookin yacht somewhere
(Damn, my mood really has been seriously down of late)
Deleted: 'indonesian wizard'
May 10, 2018 18:27:15 GMT
WhatsTheMata: Glad you think it's funny. When we get fucked around by the spells you just deleted you will take me seriously
May 19, 2018 11:57:48 GMT
No.7: Can this thread be unlocked or is it too early? not that i want Jose out now but i think were coming close to that time and want to hear peoples opinions on the subject.
Sept 20, 2018 10:15:25 GMT
cjjagzmoni: Pogba is a good lad minus the showboating..I think at Juventus he had Older players like Pirlo,Chiellini,Marchisio,Bonucci who shout and screams at him so he was more serious at Juve ,We dont have those type of leaders at United to caution him.
Nov 1, 2018 3:36:38 GMT
geo: Cardiff City - Huddersfield Town - Bournemouth - Newcastle United = 12 points. Back in the hunt. Come on.
Dec 19, 2018 17:55:18 GMT
geo: Job done as above - next step, stay unbeaten until we get to the PSG game.
Jan 3, 2019 23:17:42 GMT
theedge: Just discovered this forum. I live in Canada so don't get to many games, but I get to watch all the games live. Last 2 games attended in person: Europa League Final in Stockholm 2017, FA Cup Final 2016. Won the last 11 I've been to. I need to go more often
Apr 1, 2019 23:25:01 GMT
simes: Kazakhstan....well blow me down...been there many a time, not so bad a journey. FC Astana are not a bad outfit, gave Celtic a good run, and the National side beat Scotland. What do you reckon a walk over? BTW its easy to get to, I always use Air Astana.
Aug 30, 2019 14:11:59 GMT
snan1218: Hi,I'm very new member,the Red Devil from Malaysia.
Oct 10, 2019 9:16:40 GMT
shah: Hi i am shah been united fan from birec
Jan 24, 2020 8:33:02 GMT