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Post by JamBritRed on Nov 27, 2016 12:49:46 GMT
this recount BS is just another layer farce on top of the farce that is DJ Trump winning the elections.
i'm still not completely sure of what real change this can accomplish, but if this indeed is a backdoor attempt to reverse the election outcomes and 'give it to Hillary', then i couldn't think of a worse reaction to the election, short of finding your closest nuclear bomb and detonating it!
DJ's supporters are supposedly the more "2nd amendment" inclined of the populous. Imagine how enraged they would become is he's stripped of his presidency..... It would be CHAOS!!
no matter how adversely the concept of democracy has been affected by this man being elected, it will pale in comparison to the damage that will be done if they try to strip him of the post after the fact. THAT is an outcome i truly fear!
P.S.: RIP Fidel, one of the last true revolutionaries! the world needs more leaders with your type of cojones. Not a perfect man, but a man of principles!
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Post by Sméagol on Nov 27, 2016 12:56:21 GMT
You guys should experience life under a dictator before praising one...
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Post by JamBritRed on Nov 27, 2016 13:18:53 GMT
universal health care, high levels of literacy and numeracy, a global leader in medicine, disaster preparedness and response, a high percentage of his population being educated to tertiary levels...... i can go on.
i live practically next door to Cuba (there are 90 miles between Jamaica and Cuba) and i know very well the results of the revolution. i work with Cubans every day. Engineers, Doctors, Nurses. as i said, they are very well educated over there.
the sad reality is that most of the world sees a symptom and not a cause, its a failing of the people to not look for why something happens, and just panic over the outcomes.
Jamaica is STILL suffering from the effects of meddling from foreign powers during the 70's - the late 80's. crime in this country was significantly lower and different in nature (petty theft vs major gun and drugs crimes) prior to that period. Fidel, love him or hate him, had the strength of character to resist that meddling influence.
we should take some time to imagine how badly our own situations would be if the country we resided in was shunned by the world for over 50 years and then compare that to the current situation in Cuba.
it's a very sensitive situation for many, but Castro was by no means as bad as certain Media outlets would have you believe.
the narrative of history has always been written by the victors, and in a post 2000 world history's scribes are 24/7 news media. By now we should all realise how distorted their views can get.
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Post by Sméagol on Nov 27, 2016 13:39:35 GMT
Except I don't need media to tell me how life under communism and under a brutal dictatorship feels like. I have my parents, my brother and all my relatives to explain me how life was back then. Luckily, I was born after 1989 and the fall of Ceausescu but I can guarantee you that the society has not recovered after 27 years and it will take a few more generations for that mentality to disappear completely. Some still praise Ceausescu and consider him a great ruler because he decided to repay Romania's foreign debts in the 80's. Imagine food rationing, electricity blackouts, no heat in the winter and so on. Not to mention living in fear that the secret police will arrest and sent you in a concentration camp if you said something bad about the regime. And I'm just scratching the surface with those facts.
Fidel was not very different (the two of them were very good friends of course) and the people that managed to escape from Cuba and are now in the United States can tell you more about that (no one runs away from their country because they were having a good life). Your freedom should not be the price to pay for an apparent equality.
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Post by JamBritRed on Nov 27, 2016 14:31:37 GMT
agreed, but taking only the views of those who fled Cuba would be taking a very biased view.
i have no context to speak on Romania, but i feel fairly comfortable with the views i have on Cuba.
i can tell you there are more that a few people in Jamaica who believe that a "strong man" type leader was needed in this country in those days to subdue the metastasizing effect of the Rude-boy's and gangs who were being supported by corrupt local officials and foreign interests.
the result of the differing approaches is one country who's economy has been stifled, but has managed to educate and provide social programs for the basic needs of the populace, and another country which has lost control of a small percentage of its populace and allowed that small percentage to terrorise the majority of the country, all while it drifts aimlessly in the global economy, dependent on hand-outs and favours.
Here in Jamaica, we in certain ways look at Cuba with a hint of envy and fear. envy of what the country has managed to achieve, despite the effects of the embargo and lack of international support, and fear of what will happen when Cuba truly emerges from the cold. There is still much we and the world can learn from that country.
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Post by Sméagol on Nov 27, 2016 14:45:18 GMT
You are indeed more qualified to talk about Cuba and you certainly know more about the people there and their situation. I simply base my opinion on the personal experience of my country
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Post by RAZ on Nov 27, 2016 15:19:04 GMT
Except I don't need media to tell me how life under communism and under a brutal dictatorship feels like. I have my parents, my brother and all my relatives to explain me how life was back then. Luckily, I was born after 1989 and the fall of Ceausescu but I can guarantee you that the society has not recovered after 27 years and it will take a few more generations for that mentality to disappear completely. Some still praise Ceausescu and consider him a great ruler because he decided to repay Romania's foreign debts in the 80's. Imagine food rationing, electricity blackouts, no heat in the winter and so on. Not to mention living in fear that the secret police will arrest and sent you in a concentration camp if you said something bad about the regime. And I'm just scratching the surface with those facts. Fidel was not very different (the two of them were very good friends of course) and the people that managed to escape from Cuba and are now in the United States can tell you more about that (no one runs away from their country because they were having a good life). Your freedom should not be the price to pay for an apparent equality. It was a horrible time.i was born in 85 so still a kid during the last years of his regime.but i remember waiting with my mom for hours to get a bit of meat,bread or milk.tv was censured,only stuff about ceausescu if i remember correctly there was just one hour a day of kids programme. I'm glad we managed to leave romania in 1990,my dad fought in the revolution against ceausescu,got important political roles after it but decided to leave the country for a better future,while he was still searched by the security police. Now everytime i visit romania,while i love it there,i'm glad i had the chance to grow up in austria. Fidel...may he rest in peace or whatever but he was no saint.i studied a lot of history about fidel and che when i was younger cause i was excited about both of them but quickly realized that its not all as beautiful and nice as it seems. And as alex already mentioned above,fidel and ceausescu were close friends.that alone says enough
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Post by karthy on Nov 27, 2016 15:46:53 GMT
Every person lives and dies by the very own sword they took. Fidel or Che or any other dictator or Political leader is no different. Communism or Capitalism or Socialism or any other is no different in that. US and the UK do everything secretive to know what its citizens are doing and talking and allow them for a certain time as long as they are not deemed "dangerous" in which case they are dealt swiftly, Dictators on the other hand do it at the very beginning. Also Meddling was always a problem and to have not given in to that or fallen for that will always be something Castro known for cos it wasn't easy.
Did he do everything right perhaps not, but does that him make him evil don't know , just cos he is or will be considered great doesn't mean other such People are or should be.
Cynical as it may sound, Freedom is never really present and the idea of Security, External Threat, Equality , Need of the hour are just fancy words that are used from time to time by Leaders (political/Dictators) alike and Media to take away our freedom.
its like 1984 by George Orwell. Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
Its always totalitarian power no matter who the victor is the loser will always be the people sadly
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Post by Stew on Nov 27, 2016 16:03:44 GMT
As each month goes by, I'm more and more convinced that Orwell didn't actually write 1984. It was sent back from the future as a warning. Which we don't seem to be interested in heeding.
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United School Boy
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Post by . on Nov 27, 2016 18:40:25 GMT
As each month goes by, I'm more and more convinced that Orwell didn't actually write 1984. It was sent back from the future as a warning. Which we don't seem to be interested in heeding. 1984 and Idiocracy both.
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Post by Bestie on Nov 27, 2016 18:47:52 GMT
Hillary for America general counsel Marc Elias on listening and responding to calls for an audit and recount:
"Over the last few days, officials in the Clinton campaign have received hundreds of messages, emails, and calls urging us to do something, anything, to investigate claims that the election results were hacked and altered in a way to disadvantage Secretary Clinton. The concerns have arisen, in particular, with respect to Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania — three states that together proved decisive in this presidential election and where the combined margin of victory for Donald Trump was merely 107,000 votes. It should go without saying that we take these concerns extremely seriously. We certainly understand the heartbreak felt by so many who worked so hard to elect Hillary Clinton, and it is a fundamental principle of our democracy to ensure that every vote is properly counted. Moreover, this election cycle was unique in the degree of foreign interference witnessed throughout the campaign: the U.S. government concluded that Russian state actors were behind the hacks of the Democratic National Committee and the personal email accounts of Hillary for America campaign officials, and just yesterday, the Washington Post reported that the Russian government was behind much of the “fake news” propaganda that circulated online in the closing weeks of the election. For all these reasons, we have quietly taken a number of steps in the last two weeks to rule in or out any possibility of outside interference in the vote tally in these critical battleground states. First, since the day after the election we have had lawyers and data scientists and analysts combing over the results to spot anomalies that would suggest a hacked result. These have included analysts both from within the campaign and outside, with backgrounds in politics, technology and academia. Second, we have had numerous meetings and calls with various outside experts to hear their concerns and to discuss and review their data and findings. As a part of this, we have also shared out data and findings with them. Most of those discussions have remained private, while at least one has unfortunately been the subject of leaks. Third, we have attempted to systematically catalogue and investigate every theory that has been presented to us within our ability to do so. Fourth, we have examined the laws and practices as they pertain to recounts, contests and audits. Fifth, and most importantly, we have monitored and staffed the post-election canvasses — where voting machine tapes are compared to poll-books, provisional ballots are resolved, and all of the math is double checked from election night. During that process, we have seen Secretary Clinton’s vote total grow, so that, today, her national popular vote lead now exceeds more than 2 million votes. In the coming days, we will continue to perform our due diligence and actively follow all further activities that are to occur prior to the certification of any election results. For instance, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania conduct post-election audits using a sampling of precincts. Michigan and many other states still do not. This is unfortunate; it is our strong belief that, in addition to an election canvass, every state should do this basic audit to ensure accuracy and public confidence in the election. Beyond the post-election audit, Green Party candidate Jill Stein announced Friday that she will exercise her right as a candidate to pursue a recount in the state of Wisconsin. She has indicated plans to also seek recounts in Pennsylvania and Michigan. Because we had not uncovered any actionable evidence of hacking or outside attempts to alter the voting technology, we had not planned to exercise this option ourselves, but now that a recount has been initiated in Wisconsin, we intend to participate in order to ensure the process proceeds in a manner that is fair to all sides. If Jill Stein follows through as she has promised and pursues recounts in Pennsylvania and Michigan, we will take the same approach in those states as well. We do so fully aware that the number of votes separating Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in the closest of these states — Michigan — well exceeds the largest margin ever overcome in a recount. But regardless of the potential to change the outcome in any of the states, we feel it is important, on principle, to ensure our campaign is legally represented in any court proceedings and represented on the ground in order to monitor the recount process itself. The campaign is grateful to all those who have expended time and effort to investigate various claims of abnormalities and irregularities. While that effort has not, in our view, resulted in evidence of manipulation of results, now that a recount is underway, we believe we have an obligation to the more than 64 million Americans who cast ballots for Hillary Clinton to participate in ongoing proceedings to ensure that an accurate vote count will be reported."
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United School Boy
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Post by . on Nov 27, 2016 19:47:52 GMT
From Robert Reich, responding to false equivalencies:
Trump issued a flurry of tweets last night and early this morning, accusing Hillary Clinton of hypocrisy for joining Jill Stein’s recount in Wisconsin and potentially other states, since during the campaign Clinton had criticized Trump for suggesting he wouldn’t concede if she won. Baloney, for 4 reasons: 1. The issue during the campaign wasn't whether Trump would forfeit his right to participate in recounts or contest a close result; it was whether he would commit to accepting the election result, even where the margin wasn’t even close. He said the election was going to be stolen from him regardless of what the actual result showed, claiming there would be massive election fraud even before it was even alleged to have occurred. 2. At an October 20 rally, Trump backed away from this and said he was only preserving his right to a recount in a close result. “If Al Gore or George Bush had agreed three weeks before the election to concede the results and waive their right to a legal challenge or a recount, then there would be no Supreme Court case and no Gore v. Bush." Well then, fine. He should have no trouble with the recount that Jill Stein and Hillary Clinton are now doing. 3. Trump won the election because he carried three critical Rust Belt states by about 1 point or less -- Wisconsin by 0.8 percent, Michigan by 0.2 percent and Pennsylvania by 1.1 percent. If Clinton had won by such close margins, it wouldn’t be unreasonable for Trump to participate in recounts in one or more of those states. 4. There’s also the delicate issue of Russia. U.S. intelligence officials have found that Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee computers, and had the capability of hacking into election computers. Trump and Putin have spoken positively about one another. Trump has suggested he wouldn’t come to the aid of a NATO country attacked by Russia. It’s not totally out of the question that Russia might have sought to alter the election results in these three Rust-Belt states.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 21:32:13 GMT
Every person lives and dies by the very own sword they took. Fidel or Che or any other dictator or Political leader is no different. Communism or Capitalism or Socialism or any other is no different in that. US and the UK do everything secretive to know what its citizens are doing and talking and allow them for a certain time as long as they are not deemed "dangerous" in which case they are dealt swiftly, Dictators on the other hand do it at the very beginning. Also Meddling was always a problem and to have not given in to that or fallen for that will always be something Castro known for cos it wasn't easy. Did he do everything right perhaps not, but does that him make him evil don't know , just cos he is or will be considered great doesn't mean other such People are or should be. Cynical as it may sound, Freedom is never really present and the idea of Security, External Threat, Equality , Need of the hour are just fancy words that are used from time to time by Leaders (political/Dictators) alike and Media to take away our freedom. its like 1984 by George Orwell. Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. Its always totalitarian power no matter who the victor is the loser will always be the people sadly It honestly feels like we've outlived our welcome on this earth by current methods.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 21:43:25 GMT
this recount BS is just another layer farce on top of the farce that is DJ Trump winning the elections. i'm still not completely sure of what real change this can accomplish, but if this indeed is a backdoor attempt to reverse the election outcomes and 'give it to Hillary', then i couldn't think of a worse reaction to the election, short of finding your closest nuclear bomb and detonating it! DJ's supporters are supposedly the more "2nd amendment" inclined of the populous. Imagine how enraged they would become is he's stripped of his presidency..... It would be CHAOS!! no matter how adversely the concept of democracy has been affected by this man being elected, it will pale in comparison to the damage that will be done if they try to strip him of the post after the fact. THAT is an outcome i truly fear! That's my thinking too. If the results got overtuned it would be chaos.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2016 21:49:08 GMT
No idea about Castro myself. America turned on Cuba due to Castro siding with Russia so it'll be interesring to see how Trumps friendship with Putin is taken.
Loved the part of Michael Moore's Sicko when they all went to Cuba for their health care.
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