Vs Man City (A) - 11/11/2018 - 4:30pm - Premier League

[Rustin Cohle]

www.football365.com/news/full-transcript-of-neville-souness-heated-man-utd-debate

Gary Neville and Graeme Souness embarked on a lengthy discussion over Manchester United and Jose Mourinho on Monday night.

The pair were on Sky Sports during their coverage of Manchester City’s 3-1 derby day victory over the Red Devils on Sunday.

Neville and Souness sparked a lively debate during the show over whether the coaching staff were getting the best out of current crop of United players.

The full transcript of their discussion is below. Enjoy:

Graeme Souness: A simple question. Any manager who goes into a football club is given a group of players. The question that you, as a Manchester United supporter has to ask yourself, is the manager and the coaching staff getting the best out of the group of players at Man United. It’s a simple yes or no. What is it?

Gary Neville: I don’t know.

GS: You don’t know? You’ve watched that game of football today and, as a Man United supporter, you think that is acceptable?

GN: No, I don’t think it’s acceptable in any way, shape or form.

GS: So I come back to the question again, do you feel that he is getting the best out of that group of players?

GN: Graeme, I’ll ask you a question. Who would he have put in midfield today out of the players that he’s got that would have improved it?

GS: No, no, no. We are getting into the specifics. Simple question: you look at the names that play for Manchester United. Think of Alexis Sanchez for example’s sake. Is he playing anything like he was at Arsenal? The answer is no, a big no. Is Marcus Rashford playing like he can? Is Romelu Lukaku? Is Paul Pogba playing like he has performed? The answer is no, he is not getting the best out of that group of players.

GN: But Graeme, I was watching these players under Louis van Gaal. I saw Anthony Martial and Ander Herrera under Louis van Gaal and they weren’t much better.

GS: Come back to my question. This feels like Question Time! Yes or no, are they getting the best out of that group of players?

GN: I’ll answer it the same again… I don’t know. I’ve seen Louis van Gaal with a lot of these players and I didn’t like what I saw with that. He was a coach, somebody who would play passes. My view is that at this moment in time, Manchester United don’t look like they can win a game proactively. They finished second last season, which was the best finish since Sir Alex Ferguson. I’m not defending Jose Mourinho but if you’re asking me the question could another manager get more out of them then maybe. But maybe not. I don’t know if the players are good enough Graeme, I haven’t got a clue.

GS: These players have been top players at other clubs.

GN: Have they?

GS: I would think…

GN: Anthony Martial’s not been a top player at another club.

GS: I think most people would say Alexis Sanchez was. He can perform better. Lukaku is one.

GN: Lukaku’s not been a top player at Everton.

GS: I think he was showing more at Everton than he is at United.

GN: He went missing in every big game for Everton.

GS: I think there is a real player in Martial.

GN: So do I.

GS: And I think Rashford is better than what he’s showing.

GN: If you ask me if Ashley Young is playing the best he could possibly play then yes. Is this the Chris Smalling we’ve seen for the last few years? Yes. Victor Lindelof is playing better than he has ever played. David De Gea is not. It is so confusing when you watch Manchester United. What would you change? If you were going in there as manager tomorrow, what would you change?

GS: I would ask the midfield players to start playing one and two-touch. You don’t want to be a striker in that team.

GN: Do you think they can play one and two-touch? Ander Herrera and Marouane Fellaini?

GS: I’d be demanding it.

GN: Fellaini can’t play one and two-touch in midfield.

GS: Well I wouldn’t play Fellaini.

GN: Graeme is saying he has lost faith in Jose Mourinho at Manchester United, well Jose Mourinho has won wherever he has been. He has won 20 titles, the same as Pep Guardiola. My point is David Moyes couldn’t sort out the group, Louis van Gaal couldn’t sort out the group and now Jose Mourinho – the most successful manager of the last 15 years along with Pep Guardiola can’t sort out the group. I’m not as quick to sit here and say it’s the coaching staff’s fault. There is a problem structurally at the club that means it will be difficult for any coach to perform. Can he do better? Of course he can, but this guy has won everywhere he’s been. I haven’t lost faith in him yet. He is going through a difficult moment, but I haven’t lost faith in Jose Mourinho as a coach

GS: As long as you think it’s acceptable for them to turn up in this stadium today and play like that.

GN: I don’t think it’s acceptable, Graeme, for them to lose any game at all. I’m a Manchester United fan and I was built on them playing fantastic football

GS: That’s my point. That’s how far you’ve travelled.

GN: I didn’t like the football under Louis van Gaal either, Graeme. Or under David Moyes.

GS: In 10 years they have travelled a long way in the wrong direction.

GN: I know., but is it one man’s fault? Is it a manager’s fault or is it an issue?

GS: No, it’s a collective thing. Of course it is, but there’s no point turning around and saying they’ve not invested enough money in the team and it’s no good saying that group of players can’t play better than that because they can.

Sky Sports presenter David Jones: That’s a little taster of what life is like here at Sky Sports when the cameras aren’t rolling…

[Rustin Cohle]

www.football365.com/news/16-conclusions-manchester-city-3-1-manchester-united

16 Conclusions: Manchester City 3-1 Manchester United

1) It is utterly remarkable that, with 12 games of the season done, we find ourselves with three unbeaten teams separated by just four points at the top of the table, and yet one of them already looks like they’re going to run away with it all.

After an unprecedently successful campaign last year, Manchester City have somehow started this season even better. They have already played Manchester United, Tottenham, Liverpool and Arsenal in the Premier League this season, yet have dropped just four of a possible 36 points.

It should be boring. It should be miserable for everyone but City fans to watch. With the intense scrutiny their business affairs have quite rightly been under, they should be the most despised team in England.

But when they crank out performances like this, and score goals like the ones they did – especially the third – it becomes really bloody hard to hate them. When it comes to the big games, at least, there is no side you would rather watch than Manchester City, and if you disagree then I’m not sure we can be friends.



2) We really want to talk more about City and get to that goal, but first we need to start by putting their opponents under a bit of scrutiny.

With Paul Pogba missing through an injury he picked up in Turin, Mourinho took the opportunity to revert to type and favour three-ply steel in his midfield through Nemanja Matic, Marouane Fellaini and Ander Herrera, behind a trio of pacey players in his attack in Jesse Lingard, Marcus Rashford and Anthony Martial.

That meant there was no room in the side for either Alexis Sanchez or Juan Mata, despite the latter’s goalscoring showing off the bench and match-turning second-half performance in a pure number 10 role against Chelsea last month.

Unsurprisingly, this left United looking hopelessly short of a reliable midfielder playmaker, resulting in Herrera losing possession on multiple occasions under pressure from City’s superbly-executed press. In the 12 minutes leading up to City’s opener, United had attempted just 11 passes, only five of which found their man. They had touched the ball in the final third just four times; Sterling alone took five touches in the build-up to the opening goal.

You can have all the pace you like up front, but if your players can’t even get the ball out of their own half, you’re going to struggle.



3) The plan to starve the City front line by packing the midfield with various shades of shithouse looked especially naïve in the opening ten minutes or so, with the hosts finding it all to easy to find space between United’s back four and midfield three.

Twice inside the first four minutes, City’s pair of Silvas were able to show up United’s midfield as being more immobile than a Lazio scoresheet through the simple expedient of a change of pace.

First Bernardo Silva was able to shrug off Matic in such fashion before shooting wide from outside the box, then David Silva did superbly to get in behind Ashley Young but was unable to get the ball out from under his feet. United can’t say they weren’t warned about what would come next.



4) It’s a shame that so much of the newspaper guff has obscured what a wonderful season Raheem Sterling is having: he has five goals and three assists in his last four Premier League games at the Etihad, and has consistently been one of City’s best players. Discovering a long-absent goalscoring touch for England isn’t too shabby either for the 23-year-old.

So perhaps unsurprisingly – especially given that he was directly up against a panicky-looking Ashley Young – Sterling often served as City’s outlet, with the majority of their attacks (46.7%) going his way rather than out to Riyad Mahrez on the right (27.2%)



5) It was from such a position that City took the lead. Once again it was too easy for David Silva and Sergio Aguero to get touches in between the United lines, allowing them to work the ball to Sterling. His excellent cross to the far post was turned back across goal by Bernardo Silva, giving David Silva an easy finish.

David Silva has long been lauded at the Etihad, and will surely join the pantheon of all-time Premier League greats once the time comes for the 32-year-old to move on or retire.

But Bernardo Silva has had a little bit of a more difficult time, struggling throughout last season to impose himself on the team and make himself an automatic first choice for the big games.

Any doubts about him should now have been banished altogether, however. Bernardo Silva was in excellent form here, delivering the final pass for both the first and final goals and playing a key part in City’s second. It is on this form that he, Sterling and the evergreen Aguero and David Silva are keeping Gabriel Jesus and Leroy Sane’s opportunities confined to less dangerous opponents.



6) Mourinho’s immediate response to the opener was to push Lingard and Martial back to wide midfield roles to turn a straight 4-3-3 into more of a 4-5-1. It had the intended effect – City’s repeated eviscerations were immediately and significantly abated for the rest of the half – but it was an embarrassing switch for such an experienced manager to have to make.

City are not a team that springs tactical surprises on you: this was the exact same starting line-up that played both in last month’s 0-0 draw at Anfield and the 1-0 win over Spurs at Wembley. That their nominal central midfielders push up to effectively double up the wingers and form a front five when in possession is common knowledge.

So why Mourinho chose such a lumbering midfield to leave his full-backs so exposed was a mystery. That he was forced to correct it so early was a huge indictment of the United manager, and yet more ammunition to the accusation that he has fallen out of touch with what makes modern, attacking sides like City so successful.

7) All that said, it was clear that having got it wrong, United needed to make a change to their personnel in the first half. Herrera was utterly dreadful, and it was no surprise to see him hooked when Mata was finally introduced; it was surprising that it took until the 73rd minute for that to happen.

Mourinho has not been averse to a snap decision in the past: during his first spell at Chelsea he once made all three of his substitutions at half time. Towards the end of his second spell, he once put on Matic at the break, only to take him off again 27 minutes later. And in January this year, he took off Henrikh Mkhitaryan at half time during an FA Cup win over Derby. Yet Herrera remained on.

The effect on team morale and psychology renders the taboo around first-half substitutions understandable, at least, but surely footballers at this level are capable of recognising when they are simply having a bad day and admitting the team would be better off if their poor showing were nipped in the bud? And surely that’s doubly true when you find yourselves 2-0 down in a derby shortly after half time?


8) Just to rub salt into the wounds of United’s labouring midfield, Fernandinho was again excellent for Manchester City, looking composed in possession and indomitable off the ball.

Indeed, it was he who was largely responsible for City doubling their lead shortly after the break, catching Lingard in possession superbly and quickly recycling the ball to Bernardo Silva.

With United forced onto the back foot by Fernandinho’s excellent reading and quick thinking, it was a matter of routine for City to cut through the United defence: Silva found Aguero, who played a one-two with Mahrez before smashing the ball in at David De Gea’s near post.

City rightly get the plaudits for such lovely linkup play, but that front five would not be possible without a player of Fernandinho’s quality covering for them so ably.

9) It took Mourinho ten minutes to respond to going 2-0 down by making an attacking substitution, hauling off Lingard to make way for Romelu Lukaku.

Just 29 seconds later, the Belgian made his impact, although that had more to do with a rash bit of goalkeeping from Ederson. Anthony Martial slipped a wonderful pass into the United box for Lukaku to run onto, and despite the presence of three City defenders inside the penalty box, the Brazilian charged off his line and felled Lukaku.

It was almost a frame-for-frame replay of the penalty Ederson gave away against Southampton last week: the exact same pass, the exact same run, the exact same foul.

Such moments are, perhaps, the trade-off you make when you sign a bold, confident sweeper-keeper – Liverpool’s Alisson has also been guilty of a couple of similar crimes, coming wide from his goal when there was really no need to do so. But it is a failing Pep Guardiola will surely want to work on with his own Brazilian.



10) United came from behind to beat Juventus in midweek, Bournemouth last weekend, and Newcastle on October 6. They also came close to doing so against Chelsea last month, but for Ross Barkley’s 96th-minute equaliser. Only Arsenal (9) have won more points from losing positions than United (7).

So despite City’s dominance, you would understand a few frayed nerves at the Etihad after Martial tucked away the penalty to make it 2-1 – especially after the way United shocked City from behind to ruin their coronation last season.

But on the flipside, Manchester City had trailed in a league game only once this season, having fallen behind at Wolves back in August before an Aymeric Laporte equaliser gave them a point. In the nine games in which they have taken a lead, City had ended up winning nine; that is now a perfect ten, and accounts for the two-point lead City hold over Liverpool at the top of the Premier League table after the Reds let their lead over Arsenal slip last Saturday.



11) Right, let’s do this thing.

On 83:45, Mendy took the ball from Fernandinho’s tackle on Lukaku. The ball snaked out to the right wing, back into the middle, out of the left, back again to Sterling in the middle, then back to the right, all the way to the back four, and then suddenly, the move sparked into life with substitute Ilkay Gundogan’s surge forward into space.

He played the ball to Sterling and continued the run to perfection, putting himself in exactly the right place to easily slot home Bernardo Silva’s cross, with Matic once again idling along around the penalty spot and nowhere near Gundogan.

The ball hit the net on 85:39, nearly two full minutes and 43 passes after the move had begun. It was an incredible, unbelievable goal from a team that has already set itself extremely high standards in incredible and unbelievable.



12) In case you were wondering: yes, every City outfielder made at least one pass in that build-up. From most to least: Gundogan, Fernandinho (6); Laporte, Bernardo Silva, David Silva (5); Stones, Sterling (4); Walker, Mendy (3) and Sane (1).

There’s no real shame in not being at City’s level, but if United had been utterly outclassed early in the game, this amounted to nothing less than an abject humiliation.

Dynamic yet patient, incisive yet smart, energetic yet calm; City are everything Manchester United are not, and those two minutes made that contrast look starker than ever.



13) People will not be happy if we let this analysis go by without talking about the revelations made by Der Spiegel.

However much a club might disagree with competition rules like Financial Fair Play, it is incumbent on them to abide by them. If most other clubs are doing so and you are not, you’re not simply taking advantage of having greater wealth or a higher profile; you are outright cheating.

City are by no means the only club in Europe to have faced such allegations, merely the most recent; but it is right that people should raise questions about it, even if the driving force behind those questions is rooted in little more than nakedly jealous tribalism and whataboutery.

Money is a huge part of what determines which clubs are successful and which aren’t; the clear correlation between wages spend and achievement demonstrates that very clearly.

But it is not everything: the travails of Real Madrid and Bayern Munich this season and Chelsea in two of the last three Premier League campaigns demonstrate that. And when you see a team start a game with ten minutes like City had, and then end it with a wonderful, utterly wonderful goal like their third, you can’t just put that down to money. Money does not coach players or implement tactics or automatically instil that level of confidence.

For the good of the game, we need to keep our eyes open to financial doping, but we should also be smart enough to give credit where it’s due and admit that City are also flipping brilliant. You can’t react to such a showing with a roll of the eyes and a declaration that they bought all those passes.



14) Mourinho said after the game: “I think it’s not about the performance at all. It is a performance with mistakes, and we paid for the mistakes. All the three goals are our mistakes, and against a team like Manchester City, make mistakes and you are punished.”

I’m not sure quite how Mourinho can spin it that mistakes are not part of a performance. Individual errors will happen, yes, but this is not a young, inexperienced side; three of their starters were in their 30s, and a further three are 28 or 29 years old.

He continued: “I have told already the players that one thing is to win two matches at home 6-0 [sic] and be fresh and be relaxed, not just physically but also mentally; another thing is two matches away where the second one is Juventus where you fight like animals and it’s not just the physical effort, it’s also the mental effort the pressure before the game, the pressure during the game, and I think some of the boys felt it a little bit.”

Though undeniably accurate, that analysis ignores how rotten United were throughout the first half against Bournemouth, just as they were against Newcastle; and that they were outclassed throughout much of the game against Juventus.

To Mourinho’s credit, he did say he didn’t want to use it as an excuse (then why bring it up?), but you can’t take the kudos for claiming a snatch of comeback victories and then complain that the effort of doing so negatively affects you in the next game.



15) United were never hugely likely to win this game, but the nature of the performance after their turnaround in Turin makes it feel very much like one step forward, one step back.

After a challenging run of games, Mourinho will take some solace in an international break being followed by games against Crystal Palace, Young Boys and Southampton. But he will also know that his margin for error in those games is very slim indeed if the weekly barrage of criticism he and his side experienced in August and September is to stay in the past.



16) City, meanwhile, will return from the break facing a potential tricky (but still eminently winnable) run of games against West Ham, Lyon, Bournemouth, Watford and Chelsea. They will surely hold no fear – even if it might make things a little bit more interesting if they were to suffer an unexpected hiccup.

[Stew]

Looking at SSN this morning- on the 3rd goal Lindelof turned to Matic, pointed to Gundogan, told Matic to pick him up and still Matic let him get in behind him. You can berate Jose for starting Fellani, you can bemoan leaving Lingard and Herrera on the pitch as long as he did but I can’t blame him for a player who has been at the top of the game for so long doing something as pathetic as that.

[Bestie]

city did to us what we used to do to them. Completely dominate, dangle a bit of hope, snatch it away while rubbing their noses in it.

Morals be damned. I for one welcome our new corrupt as fuck Saudi overlords. Sooner the better.

[mightyez]

until we see from fluid attacking play and a lot more goals I can't buy into the thought that not getting a defender in the summer has resulted in what we are seeing so far this season.
if we are banging in goals and the midfield and attack are like poetry in motion but we lose games or draw because of a leaking tap defence then i'll be screaming from the rooftops that Jose got well and truly robbed and mugged in the summer.
Unfortunately we are where we are because some of the defenders aren't up to par, some of the midfielders aren't up to par, attacking play mainly no existent.

whilst the late goals and wins in the last few games hopefully would have made these players realise they can actually play abit, you would think this loss before the international break would be abit damaging for their fragile minds.
Jose has come out and for once I am happy he is making excuses rather than publicly throwing them under a bus but even he must scratch his head at why this team decides it's too cool to run, out muscle teams, out sprint teams etc

[mightyez]

Nov 12, 2018 10:11:23 GMT Bestie said:

city did to us what we used to do to them. Completely dominate, dangle a bit of hope, snatch it away while rubbing their noses in it.

Morals be damned. I for one welcome our new corrupt as fuck Saudi overlords. Sooner the better.

take them in a heart beat.
we generate our own money but what they will do is ensure from top to bottom there is a structure.
football men to run the on the pitch side of things and business men to run the off the pitch side of things and keep that commercial money coming in.
debt cleared off and take us off that stock market

[alwaysUnited]

We still need a new manager but the city match is hardly Jose's fault. The difference in the quality and current form of players is just too much especially without pogba. And we cant sit back and defend deep either with our porous defense.

Only way to unsettle city is to press them aggressively , but even that comes with its share of risks and opens up spaces, especially since we rarely play that way.

[Karma]

Nov 12, 2018 10:16:41 GMT mightyez said:

Nov 12, 2018 10:11:23 GMT Bestie said:

city did to us what we used to do to them. Completely dominate, dangle a bit of hope, snatch it away while rubbing their noses in it.

Morals be damned. I for one welcome our new corrupt as fuck Saudi overlords. Sooner the better.

take them in a heart beat.
we generate our own money but what they will do is ensure from top to bottom there is a structure.
football men to run the on the pitch side of things and business men to run the off the pitch side of things and keep that commercial money coming in.
debt cleared off and take us off that stock market

Yeah let's see the same press who are hanging out of city's arse defend that!

[Stew]

Nov 12, 2018 10:16:41 GMT mightyez said:

Nov 12, 2018 10:11:23 GMT Bestie said:

city did to us what we used to do to them. Completely dominate, dangle a bit of hope, snatch it away while rubbing their noses in it.

Morals be damned. I for one welcome our new corrupt as fuck Saudi overlords. Sooner the better.

take them in a heart beat.
we generate our own money but what they will do is ensure from top to bottom there is a structure.
football men to run the on the pitch side of things and business men to run the off the pitch side of things and keep that commercial money coming in.
debt cleared off and take us off that stock market

As vile the corruption is from them, there was a humility there in the early days which has lead them to this point. They seemed to recognise early that football men were needed, so they got the ex-Barca guy. They didn’t try to do it themselves. Annoying as it is, it showed vision.

We have Ed.

[Karma]

Nov 12, 2018 10:43:43 GMT Stew said:

Nov 12, 2018 10:16:41 GMT mightyez said:

take them in a heart beat.
we generate our own money but what they will do is ensure from top to bottom there is a structure.
football men to run the on the pitch side of things and business men to run the off the pitch side of things and keep that commercial money coming in.
debt cleared off and take us off that stock market

As vile the corruption is from them, there was a humility there in the early days which has lead them to this point. They seemed to recognise early that football men were needed, so they got the ex-Barca guy. They didn’t try to do it themselves. Annoying as it is, it showed vision.

We have Ed.

Probably stood in front of a mirror practising an updated version of his adult Disneyland speech for the next sucker who's out of contract!

[ScholesEvilTwin]

At this stage it is going to take someone with the Saudis deep pockets to fix it.

Take a big hit on clearing out the squad and properly replace them.

Clear up of the backroom staff (depending on new manager, etc)

Further investment into the youth team/reserves to ensure a constant enough stream of potential new players.

Upgrade of stadium - although that isn't exactly a pressing issue.




Unless the gimps suddenly have an epiphany then none of it is going to happen under them.
And even if they did, would you trust Ed to do it properly?

[Stew]

Nov 12, 2018 11:06:20 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

At this stage it is going to take someone with the Saudis deep pockets to fix it.

Take a big hit on clearing out the squad and properly replace them.

Clear up of the backroom staff (depending on new manager, etc)

Further investment into the youth team/reserves to ensure a constant enough stream of potential new players.

Upgrade of stadium - although that isn't exactly a pressing issue.




Unless the gimps suddenly have an epiphany then none of it is going to happen under them.
And even if they did, would you trust Ed to do it properly?

This only works if Ed is moved to sponsorship deals only.

[Karma]

Nov 12, 2018 11:06:20 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

At this stage it is going to take someone with the Saudis deep pockets to fix it.

Take a big hit on clearing out the squad and properly replace them.

Clear up of the backroom staff (depending on new manager, etc)

Further investment into the youth team/reserves to ensure a constant enough stream of potential new players.

Upgrade of stadium - although that isn't exactly a pressing issue.




Unless the gimps suddenly have an epiphany then none of it is going to happen under them.
And even if they did, would you trust Ed to do it properly?

None of it is going to happen unfortunately and Ed will remain as clueless as ever!

What the hell does Lingard actually offer us as well?

Imagine one of the other clubs paying him 100 grand a week. Oh well at least he's come through the academy so we can brag about that.

[Bestie]

Nov 12, 2018 11:10:56 GMT Stew said:

Nov 12, 2018 11:06:20 GMT ScholesEvilTwin said:

At this stage it is going to take someone with the Saudis deep pockets to fix it.

Take a big hit on clearing out the squad and properly replace them.

Clear up of the backroom staff (depending on new manager, etc)

Further investment into the youth team/reserves to ensure a constant enough stream of potential new players.

Upgrade of stadium - although that isn't exactly a pressing issue.




Unless the gimps suddenly have an epiphany then none of it is going to happen under them.
And even if they did, would you trust Ed to do it properly?

This only works if Ed is moved to sponsorship deals only the nearest embassy.

[ScholesEvilTwin]

Nov 12, 2018 11:12:36 GMT Bestie said:

Nov 12, 2018 11:10:56 GMT Stew said:

This only works if Ed is moved to sponsorship deals only the nearest embassy.

Haha.

With deep pockets there is no need to whore out the club to everyone.

Just keep the existing contracts ticking over and that will more than cover FFP