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Post by ericactor1 on Feb 22, 2012 23:28:29 GMT
Your just being a smart now, I never claimed there was a perfect manager with signings.
You seem to think Ferguson is beyond criticism, claiming I know the perfect plays is just childish nonsense from yourself.
When have I said 'he makes more mistakes than he gets right'? You seem to be running away with your thoughts on this one Set.
His judgement on transfers for me has been poor in some cases, Djemba Djemba was brought in as a potential replacement for Roy Keane. How anyone can make that assessment is beyond me, he never looked like he had United quality.
Bebe? Is this another 'risk' he had to take? Shocking player with very little ability in my eyes, certainly not the ability to be a top player at one of the biggest clubs in the world. We also could of gotten him on a free the season before.
Anderson for me has been a flop, came from Porto with a big reputation and never really lived up to it. Showed glimpses of being a good player but never really progressed, if we had of signing a midfielder in the summer he would be gone by now.
Obertan came from Bordeaux, never really looked liked a quality player and had suffered with mental problems before arriving at the club.
Toisc/Lajic didn't really set the world alight either.
Your speaking hypothetically about player who may or may not come and make an impression i'm talking about players who have came and done nothing.
You asking me for the perfect player? There is no such thing in football as the perfect player, every player can always improve on their last performance.
Your probably asking me who do I think could of made a difference at United signing who would of been good? We'll in recent seasons theres VDV, Silva, Mata, Arteta, Ox, Nasri.
I'm not going to go back through the years and pick out potential signings who could of made a difference, you seem to think i'm totally against ferguson judge of player i'm not.
He's made some fantastic signings during his 25 duration at old trafford, I just happen to think his judgement of player has been off sometimes. Nothing wrong in that, i'm just saying.
No need to get all hot and flustered.
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Post by ScholesEvilTwin on Feb 22, 2012 23:37:08 GMT
No, im trying to point out that signing the perfect player isnt a perfect science - and that even those that look the dogs bollocks now could come in and be shite for us - so would Fergie be to blame if that did happen?, given that the general consensus is that they are great. What would happen if he didnt take a chance and some players ended up at other clubs? He would get slated for it like he has been. Nasri promised Fergie he would sign btw and then he phoned Fergie and told him that City offered his agent 4mill to make sure he signed for them. Oh, and you are totally against Fergies judgement of player: in general his ability to sign good players hasn't been as good as other managers. This one is my favourite, as the highlighted part sounds like you knew before Fergie signed said players that they would be shit for us: There some signings I think was off, yes some where young lads he took a risk on but judging by their ability it wasn't very hard to see that they were never going to be top players. How could he have done better?? Never made mistakes?? If you think Sir Alex has done well when it comes to transfers then so be, I think he could of done a whole lot better. |
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Post by ericactor1 on Feb 22, 2012 23:57:54 GMT
I don't know who could have done better but I think Arry Rednapp and Wenger have a great eye for talent. Their not necessarily better than Fergie but they do have an eye for a good bargain.
Why do you keep highlighting 'don't make mistakes' everyone makes mistakes of course. Again you seem to think i'm calling for Fergie head or something the way your reacting, its healthy to question things.
I'm not implying that he's been consistently bad but he has made some bad ones, no ones perfect of course I just think theres better managers out their who have a better eye for a bargain in the transfer window.
When I say judging by their ability I meant their ability on the pitch when playing for United, do you think these players were stars at their previous clubs and decided to play bad at United?
Bellion had one goal in twenty games with Sunderland before moving to United, he was nothing special with them what prompted us to sign him?
Obertan played 54 games with Bordeaux and never really made an impression, Blanc sent him out on loan the season before he joined United.
Bebe? I don't need to explain that one, the world media is still trying to figure that out.
I'm naming but a few, there's been some weird signings with no justification to them.
Theres taking a risk and just be plain daft, I don't mind the club brining a young lad in for the youths system and taking a risk on him. Theres time to work on those players, there no excuse for bringing in poor developed established players.
As I keep saying and you seem to ignore this point, i'm not saying Ferguson is consistently bad I just think he's made some blunders along the way transfer wise.
We are allowed to question Sir Alex from time to time are we not?
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Feb 23, 2012 6:36:30 GMT
Opinions guys, we're all entitled to one.
Things would get pretty mundane if we never objectively judged our own club without the tinted specs. Constructive criticism so to speak. Eric's actually just pointed out he's made a few mistakes in bringing in players in recent years, he's getting old, he can't simply maintain the highest standards transfer-wise.
Obviously there will be mistakes, you're dealing with human beings that often have to change their environment completely in order to suddenly have to play for the biggest team in the world, and the immense pressure that comes with that. That said, he's also made some astoundingly brilliant signings which, at the end of the day, are remembered alot more fondly by our followers.
No-one is immune to criticism and, as eric said, Wenger and Arry might have made some more astute signings but we have to remember their margin for error was/is alot bigger than us in yesteryear so they needed to make sure they brought in someone that will most likely succeed, they just couldn't afford to take a chance. Obviously they made mistakes, much like every manager in the world.
In short, in terms of player management, tactics and generally running a football club in the right manner with regard to the players, fans and youth system - fergie tops the lot, the greatest there will ever be.
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Post by jimbonda on Feb 23, 2012 10:58:11 GMT
Alan Smith was an excellent player for us, veryone just seems to remember his leg break and being shoe-horned into a midfield role. Not having this recent ragging on Smudge! yeah i'm not having that either. smith was doing well for us up front, he was actually scoring a lot of goals and goals in big games in the prem (arsenal) and in the champions league. and i remember him getting a couple of belters from outside the box. totally different player back then than the midfielder he was to become. he looked like a very good purchase. the problem for him was 6 months after his purchase who did we sign? Wayne Rooney. there goes the game time and the big injury wasn't far behind. |
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Post by jimbonda on Feb 23, 2012 11:07:30 GMT
Taibi Kleberson Djemba-Djemba Bellion ForlanVeronAlan SmithAnderson ObertanRalph Milne Jordi Cruyff Bebe Karel PoborskyBen FosterBarthezCarroll TosicManucho Miller BosnichFangzhou There some signings I think was off, yes some where young lads he took a risk on but judging by their ability it wasn't very hard to see that they were never going to be top players. a line through all the good players in your list. admittedly some didn't work out but you're being very harsh on barthez and anderson IMO. ando is well worth his place in the squad and barthez was a match-winner for us on many occasions, including some european nights. he wasn't the flop some people remember him to be. |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Feb 23, 2012 11:08:36 GMT
love how this thread went from Lindegaard vs De Gea, to Fergie's transfer proficiency and now back to Alan Smith.
I was always a fan of Alan, just thought he'd been with us at the wrong time and that injury, which could end careers in some cases (and in many ways it did here), finished him for us.
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Post by ScholesEvilTwin on Feb 23, 2012 11:21:39 GMT
I had a reply wrote out and my browser fucked up. I cant be arsed retyping it all.
Its not about "not questioning him" its about making a valid point when you do.
You said "his ability to sign good players hasn't been as good as other managers." - yet he has made at least twice - if not 3 or 4 times - as many good signings as he has bad. So show me a manager that has a better record?
Hes signing players for United. Not some shit team. Some look great then get fazed here due to the pressure - how can Fergie test for that? Ask them if the have the mental ability to cope? That would go down well....not.
You watch a young winger - he has a good bit of pace, decent ball control and a wicked shot. You and your staff think he has the ability to make it big and that ye can help smooth out the rough edges and make him better - a la Ronaldo - so you take a chance. But he doesnt make it (for whatever reason) - so are they at fault for trying? Or should they all be sacked for not being able to spot a shit player? Or is it just one of those things that happen in football?
Or is it we should just be signing ready-made top notch players?
You seem to think spotting good players are easy and that all of fergies bad young signings were easy ones to spot were shite. Whats your take on some of our youngsters?
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Post by jimbonda on Feb 23, 2012 14:35:36 GMT
You seem to think spotting good players are easy and that all of fergies bad young signings were easy ones to spot were shite. speaking for myself and not necessarily SET, this is the attitude that winds people up, when people make out it's some kind of flaw in a good managers personality that they've bought some duds. 'Yeah Fergusons a great manager BUT he's bought some shit players' it's not a flaw it's an inevitability. every manager has signed players who have been less than successful for them. and when you've been there 25 years then the odds are there will be a few. and they are often talented players who it just doesn't happen for. very harsh to write them off as flops as if they were pub players who hoodwinked the scouts by doing a few keep ups. i don't know for sure because i'm not a manager or a scout but unless you're signing an established player you've got to throw mud at the wall sometimes and see what sticks. there were no guarantees solskjaer the molde striker would cut it in the prem were there. |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Feb 23, 2012 15:33:24 GMT
You seem to think spotting good players are easy and that all of fergies bad young signings were easy ones to spot were shite. speaking for myself and not necessarily SET, this is the attitude that winds people up, when people make out it's some kind of flaw in a good managers personality that they've bought some duds. 'Yeah Fergusons a great manager BUT he's bought some shit players' it's not a flaw it's an inevitability. every manager has signed players who have been less than successful for them. and when you've been there 25 years then the odds are there will be a few. and they are often talented players who it just doesn't happen for. very harsh to write them off as flops as if they were pub players who hoodwinked the scouts by doing a few keep ups. i don't know for sure because i'm not a manager or a scout but unless you're signing an established player you've got to throw mud at the wall sometimes and see what sticks. there were no guarantees solskjaer the molde striker would cut it in the prem were there. good post. |
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Post by Dan United on Feb 23, 2012 17:34:39 GMT
In my eyes there are 4 types of flops;
the absolute inexplicable ones where everyone can see it's not going to work out - Bebe
The expensive flop - Veron
The player who never realised their potential - Anderson???
The foreign player that just never suited English football - Veron again, Forlan
You can't really excuse the inexplicable ones, but if you could go back in time and put yourself in Fergie's shoes, would you buy Veron when he did? If you say no, you're a fool
Would you not have bought Shevchenko when Chelsea did?
The young players with potential - how many of us were creaming ourselves when we paid big money for Nani and Anderson? I was. One has been a brilliant bit of business, the other, if he left tomorrow, would have been a failure. But that doesn't mean that Fegie was wrong to go for them.
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Post by ericactor1 on Feb 24, 2012 0:54:46 GMT
Some good points mentioned, the reason I went off topic was because I was pointing out that if DeGea didn't turn out to be a good signing then it wouldn't have been the first time Sir Alex has signed an underachiever.
Its not a criticism of the man but more a matter of fact, yes we can talk about ages and taking chances but the fact of the matter is he still signed them.
I personally don't think all the signings that were made were down to him people obviously advised him along the way although he had the final say. Wasn't Carlos responsible for bringing Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson to United?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 2:05:03 GMT
It seems like a pretty pointless point to make though, I think that is what SET was saying (correct me if I'm wrong SET)
Fergie has been here for over 25 years. I have no idea of how many players he has signed in that time, but if you take an average of, say, 6 players per year, that comes to 150 players bought by Fergie.
Is there anyone out there who thinks all 150 should have been a success? All turn out to be top class? All either sold at a profit or given years of quality service?
Of course he has bought the odd dud, he has taken risks with a number of players, young lads (Ronaldo, Sharpe, Anderson, etc), old guys (Blanc, Sheringham, VDS), players with "questionable" histories (Cantona, Veron, who was being investigated for having a fake passport when he signed for us), players with previous bad injuries (Hargreaves, RVN).
If you think every signing should have been a success then you have high expectations to say the least.
If you accept that every single club and manager in the history of the world game has made/will make the occassional bad signing, then it's a pointless thread to say De Gea might be another one of Fergie's bad signings.
You say his judgement has been poor in some cases? Yes, of course it has, as has every single other man who has ever managed a football club.
Maybe we're missing your point slightly, but it seems pretty harsh to say Fergie has made transfer mistakes and list some players who never made the grade at OT to make the point, as though there are other managers out there who have these first class records and never make poor signings.
Arsene Wenger paid a combined 45 million for Arshavin, Reyes, Wright and Jeffers.
Capello broke the world transfer record to sign Lentini!
Mourinho spent 100 million on Shevchenko, Ferreira, Mikel, Kezman, Del Horno, SWP, and Belleti.
Shit happens.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 10:12:39 GMT
Mourinho never bought Shevchenko ..... Abramovich did
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Post by Tatty on Feb 24, 2012 10:38:33 GMT
Beletti was free and did a job for Chelsea.
Back to De Gea, decent game last night, seemed to command his box a little better and was bollocking the back four, rightly so. He's growing into a top 'keeper slowly, but surely.
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