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Post by Bestie on Apr 9, 2012 13:57:44 GMT
Nah mate, come on. A dive is what Carroll did, Young felt the contact and let himself go over. There is definately a difference. If he had "dived" dived I would be the first to condemn him but some people on here have gone completely over the top. Like I said earlier, running at full pace and they Young does, barely touching the ground, a nudge is enough. He's not exactly the biggest guy in the world either, Ashley Young. Have you played sport?, the chances are you have at some point. Yes its easy to knock a person over at full speed but its not that easy. Having played alot of rugby i could take some serious wacks and still stay on my feet. Messi is tiny and vidic struggled to get him off his feet when he was climbing all over his back. My point is if you really want to stay on your feet you can in most circumstances. Most players are waiting for the contact, they expect it so they just keep there leg in and get ready to fall over. How many times have you seen penalties given against goal keepers because strikers just want to get to the ball first and its irrelevant if they touch it miles from goal because they know any contact by the goalie and its a penalty. Its not just young that does this obviously but this grey area in diving does annoy me. I understand exactly what you're saying mate, and I actually do agree. I also did say about how you can be running at full pelt and stay on your feet (even alluded to rugger players!) but my point is that if you're running the way some players do, it is easier to knock them off balance. (Btw, I have played sport, and my ability not to be sent into a tailspin with contact increased dramatically since I had my growth spurt at about 15. Still occasionally go tumbling though, but in fairness over the first 5-10 yards I won't be going at any pace that would see me flying!) The other thing that I've complained of before, and others have as well, is that our players tend to try and stay on their feet and don't get the decisions. I'm pretty sure it's happened this season with Ash young even, in a game we went on to win anyway so nobody talked about it. I think I even moaned why was Young being so honest at the time! There are fine lines. |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Apr 9, 2012 14:07:54 GMT
Nah mate, come on. A dive is what Carroll did, Young felt the contact and let himself go over. There is definately a difference. If he had "dived" dived I would be the first to condemn him but some people on here have gone completely over the top. Like I said earlier, running at full pace and they Young does, barely touching the ground, a nudge is enough. He's not exactly the biggest guy in the world either, Ashley Young. Have you played sport?, the chances are you have at some point. Yes its easy to knock a person over at full speed but its not that easy. Having played alot of rugby i could take some serious wacks and still stay on my feet. Messi is tiny and vidic struggled to get him off his feet when he was climbing all over his back. My point is if you really want to stay on your feet you can in most circumstances. Most players are waiting for the contact, they expect it so they just keep there leg in and get ready to fall over. How many times have you seen penalties given against goal keepers because strikers just want to get to the ball first and its irrelevant if they touch it miles from goal because they know any contact by the goalie and its a penalty. Its not just young that does this obviously but this grey area in diving does annoy me. Have to agree with John. It's not as easy as it seems to bring down. Seen it and felt it 2130130130 times on the pitches I play at. Am sure plenty have too. There's barely contact made with Young. |
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Post by Ole's Red Whiteknight03 Army on Apr 9, 2012 15:00:51 GMT
 I put on Talksport this week, for the first time in ages, and had the pleasure of hearing Collymore and Saggers on their soapbox about simulation and it wound me up to no end. They decry the lack of young technically gifted English players who want the ball at their feet, can skip past players and deliver pinpoint passes like the Latin players can, like Spain can, like seemingly the rest of the world can. They also complain that the rest of the world has gone soft and has outlawed tackling, and want defenders to be able to get a hint of a tough on the ball and clean out said young English technically gifted player who wants the ball at his feet. It's like complaining about the absence of good steak joints one day, and the killing of cows the next. You can't have it both ways. If high levels of physicality are allowed/encouraged it stands to reason that attackers will want to get rid of the ball before the contact arrives. Defenders won't want to try and control the ball on the edge of their own penalty area if they can be pushed off the ball, they'll just hack it clear or punt it long, and then the same pundits get on the same soapbox and complain that we don't produce players who feel comfortable on the ball. Simulation goes hand in hand with the same argument. Players use if as a self-defence mechanism to protect themselves and possession from overly physical defenders. It goes hand in hand with that possession oriented style that the same pundits want us to adopt. If you want football that's hard tackling and players stay on their feet and take it like men, that's fine, but you have to realize that it comes with a price. That style won't work in Europe or at the international level, because the rest of the footballing world doesn't hold the same values. You can't castigate players for losing their cool and getting sent off because they expect their opponents to suck it up and take their kicking like men. You can't expect that we play like Spain and develop that style of player when you allow defenders to kick lumps out of him growing up until he avoids the ball like the plague. It really winds me up when pundits want to argue both sides of the same argument just because it resonates with a segment of the population at a given time, without once realizing that they are contradicting what they said yesterday or the day before. I'm not defending the Barcelona antics. I am saying that if the press wants English players to play like that, then they get the whole package, simulation, card waving and no tackling. They can't pick and choose, because it's all connected. If they want their tough tackling, it's a man's game league, then shut up with the "be more like Spain" crap. Besides, like I said in my first post, I'm unashamedly hypocritical on this issue. When other team's players do it, they're cheats. When ours do it, it's clever play. |
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Post by jimbonda on Apr 9, 2012 15:09:40 GMT
technically gifted generation + tough tackling does not = the need to dive and simulate IMO. the game was 10x more dangerous 30/40 years ago and we had brilliant players in england.
tackling is getting more and more outlawed by the year. also what happened to jumping out the way of dangerous tackles? why is 'going down' the safest option? i hate to repeat myself but how many times did George Best dive? and the sort of abuse they dished out to him just doesn't happen anymore.
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Post by Bestie on Apr 9, 2012 15:22:58 GMT
No way. You can be a fantastic footballer and not have to cheat. At all. jim's right, when did George go star-jumping to the floor? Or any of the best players these shores have produced?
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Post by johnboy14 on Apr 9, 2012 15:59:00 GMT
I don't think the lack of technically gifted players has anything to do with tough tackling in the english game whiteknight03. If anything England produced alot more technically gifted players 20 or 30 years ago as said above with the physical element still in the game. Ruling out dangerous tackles is fair enough, no one wants to see career threatening injuries but diving and cheating is a pretty shitty excuse. Its the kind of excuse cheats would use to prosper. You must of been a marked man alantas ;D
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Post by ericactor1 on Apr 9, 2012 17:09:43 GMT
Different players have different centres of gravity and balance, i'm not making excuse for him but its easier for players like Young and Ronaldo to go down than it is for others.
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Post by fletchabey on Apr 9, 2012 17:26:05 GMT
Part of them problem is what advantage is there to gain by staying on your feet the vast majority of the time? Most of the time even if a foul is committed, if you stay on your feet it is deemed not a penalty. Even if you get through the chances of scoring are lot lower than odds of tucking away a penalty.
The only genuine way to combat it is to balance out the advantage gained is to make it more detrimental to do. You really need retroactive bans for dives. The Governing bodies dont like to do that though.
Still though I think there's a sizeable difference between zero contact dives and exaggerating contact.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 17:28:59 GMT
It was a dive plain and simple, yes the arm was up but there nowhere near enough contact to warrant going down. Were all quick to judge other teams when their players dive so should only be right to condemn our own when we do it. If he gets punished then its his own fault simple as. A player with the talent he has doesnt need to black mark it by add simulation to it.
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Post by _ on Apr 9, 2012 17:50:34 GMT
It was a dive plain and simple, yes the arm was up but there nowhere near enough contact to warrant going down. Were all quick to judge other teams when their players dive so should only be right to condemn our own when we do it. If he gets punished then its his own fault simple as. A player with the talent he has doesnt need to black mark it by add simulation to it. Great post mate. Agree with everything you say. |
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Post by johnboy14 on Apr 9, 2012 18:33:05 GMT
Different players have different centres of gravity and balance, i'm not making excuse for him but its easier for players like Young and Ronaldo to go down than it is for others. I understand this is an obvious advantage for some players but ronaldo and young don't run on marbles. Did you see the amount of diving ronaldo was doing last night against valencia, getting the slightest touch and falling down and wining like a big 16 stone baby. |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Apr 9, 2012 21:04:46 GMT
I don't think the lack of technically gifted players has anything to do with tough tackling in the english game whiteknight03. If anything England produced alot more technically gifted players 20 or 30 years ago as said above with the physical element still in the game. Ruling out dangerous tackles is fair enough, no one wants to see career threatening injuries but diving and cheating is a pretty shitty excuse. Its the kind of excuse cheats would use to prosper. You must of been a marked man alantas ;D Loads of players at the pitches I play against love to get stuck in, but equally I have seen plenty of technically adept players who keep on their feet and dazzle the opponent. I'm not even the biggest of statures, so you can imagine the bruises I can get sometimes. There's this one team, whose players dives and shouts for every foul like there's no tomorrow, and every team in the league's pretty much peeved off with them. At every contact you make with them, they fall like flies. There's nothing to be proud of to dive IMO, it makes them looks like idiots and a bunch of tossers among footballing peers. I do think the UK is quite behind on producing players who can play ala Ronaldo or Messi style, but I doubt this has to do with grass roots and the way we bring players up rather than players being in a game that is hard tackling or not. I dislike watching really hard / rough tackles, but I'm all for fair / good ones obviously. Just would like a little bit of honesty back into the game. At the same time, referees need to learn to call on fouls where the player remains standing and not when they fall over. This and learning to book players for simulation. As I said before, if the prejudice against tackling goes on, then might as well make football into a penalty shootout or make football into a "touch" sport. Too much of the game is being based on referee's decision today rather than focused on pure skills and simply... just the game! |
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Post by benji09 on Apr 10, 2012 5:29:52 GMT
Nothing pisses me off more in modern football than the inevitable situation we get near the byline where an attacker touches the back of a defender and they fall over...every fucking time.
No defender in world football doesn't do it. Its so inevitable, you shout out to the attacker 'DONT TOUCH HIM!!!!''
oh and then he does, and there is a free kick and a legitimate attempt at getting the ball is accepted by everyone to be a foul and part of the fabric of the game like no other form of diving.
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Post by Bestie on Apr 10, 2012 11:23:41 GMT
You're right benj, that drives me up the walls with frustration too.
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Post by stretfordend ryda on Apr 15, 2012 18:43:47 GMT
my manager always told me if you feel contact then go down, and that was almost 10 years ago
i think if theres contact it cant really be classed as a dive but it can be classed as making a meal of it/looking for a pen/free kick
how ever if theres no contact like andy carroll the other week then thats a blatent dive
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