Messi

[JamBritRed]

soooooooo...................... back to the point at hand.

Congrats to messi on breaking the record. achieving that is crazy, and i for one am glad that im around when it happened (even if i didnt watch the game)

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if i may raise a discussion with the forum that i had with a co-worker today. it touches on some things mentioned b4 on this site about the undisputed 2 leading players in world football. i want to disclaim however, what im about to write is in no way an attempt to denigrate either Cristiano or Messi , i just want to get honest opinions (without the sniping if at all possible)

the discussion with my co-worker was a hypothetical one. he was of the opinion that Messi is a great player, Full stop! He believes that should Messi be taken out of the Barca set-up, that he would be as effective and dangerous in any other team.
i retorted that should he and CR7 swap sides, that i didnt believe that Messi could post similar numbers in the madrid set-up (not to say that he would not be still considered one of the two best in the world however), and that CR7 probably would be able to maintain his current number of goals in a barca team.

essentially, i believe that Messi is this magnificent, not only due to personal skill, but also due to the fact that his style of play is tailor made for Barca. remove that support structure can he still be breaking these footballing records with ease?

i pose this only for your honest feedback. we probably will never see Messi outside of the Barca set-up in a club setting, thus the answers will probably never be confirmed. and maybe that is for the best. i just wonder what he (not Barca) could do with players that aren't barca bred, but equally world class (say at United, Bayern, Real, Chelski, City etc.)

[karthy]

@jambi - have had similar arguments with my co workers esp since i like CR& a lot and well they mostly are ABU Trolls.
CR& has been in 2 big clubs and has continued to grow , excel and his goal scoring abilities are phenomenol ,esp his FK's. Messi on the other hand has been a 1 club guy and while he sparkles with the National team from time to time , not so much as with Barca.

Also , and this is IMO , La Liga is typical a 2 Horse ( 3 if you consider AM , this season) race with the other teams trailing the top 2 by some margin and is not so much tough as it is in PL or Bundesliga. CR& excelled here as well as in La Liga.

So for me CR7 will always be better for that reason. Red Tinted Glasses perhaps or love for CR7 that's my POV. Ronaldo all day.

(P.S- I am sure that some one will bring up CR's play with National Team , but with no other clubs that Messi has played with , hence my reason to compare with it)

[JamBritRed]

thanks for the response Karthy.

u echo my opinion, that i tried to impress upon my co-worker. admitting my United bias, i still think Ronaldo would be as lethal in that Barca team as he is with Real, im not sure if Messi would be able to pull this stratospheric level of play at Real.

[tommyred]

The way Barca play suits Messi and the way Madrid play suits Ronaldo. You build teams around world class players. I don't think either would do QUITE as well for the other side but they'd both still be spectacular.

Every player relies on team mates to a degree. Messi creates lots of goals himself though and also creates many for his team mates.

Seems a flimsy argument to try to downplay his achievements, and it's all based on conjecture.

[Bestie]

The big thing for me is, and you've alluded to it tommy, Ronaldo was the best in the world for us. He was on a different level for Manchester United, in the Premier League, and yet when he went to Real Madrid he went up another gear.

That's what, in my eyes, gives him the edge.

[tommyred]

This other gear he's gone to still isn't quite as high as Messi's so I don't understand how that gives him the edge?

Do you literally just mean cause he's played in 2 leagues?

[JamBritRed]

Dec 10, 2012 21:49:28 GMT tommyred said:

Seems a flimsy argument to try to downplay his achievements, and it's all based on conjecture.

just to clarify Tommy, im not posing the question to downplay his achievements. i tried to make that clear, and if i am coming accross any differently then i want to restate the fact that at this point Messi is the best footballer on the planet!

i have always wondered, and i think there is this curiosity with a few people, some of which use this forum, if Messi's undoubted dominance is more a result of HIS individual footballing ability or the SYSTEM that he has perfected playing in, the Barca system.

as much as many people dismiss the comparison between the two, there will always hang this question over Messi with some of us out there, because Cristiano has proven that he can hit those heights irrespective of the system that he plays in.

i for one think it's a credible query. and again i dont think it's unreasonable to ask it, while still accepting that Messi is currently the more effective of the two footballers.

[Bestie]

In my view the Premier League is a better overall league than La Liga. I think it's more competitive top to bottom, and I think there are more teams that can really test the top, top teams every week.
That's why I think the high levels that Ronaldo got to in our league and the huge stats etc. he put up here are so impressive.

So you take that into account, and then he not only matched those stats in (my view) a slightly lesser league, but did what he should have done and raised his level. Purely impact-wise I'm not sure you can really say Messi's other gear is higher either.

And he did it straight-away. Messi has gotten continually better in La Liga over the course of what, 7 years? Who's to say that had Ronaldo been at Madrid and playing in La Liga week-in, week-out he wouldn't be posting the exact same figures as Messi?

You can't say he definitely would or wouldn't have. Which is why it so annoys me when people try to claim Messi as the outright better player, because (again, in my view), Ronaldo's achievements in the Premier League are under-rated or forgotten about.

[Deleted]

The Ronaldo > Messi supporters mean, I think, that yes, the fact that Ronaldo has proven himself in 2 top leagues, for 2 different clubs, and has taken his game to new levels for both these clubs, whereas Messi plays for the same club he came through the ranks at, and hasn't proven/tested himself at a different place, then that gives Ronaldo the edge. Speculate all we like, no one can truly say what would happen if Messi did come to the prem, or go to Italy or Germany, whether he'd be just as effective, somehow even better, or not as good. Also, the fact that Ronaldo had the massive pressure of being the worlds most expensive player on his shoulders, and has responded spectacularly to that pressure maybe gives him another slight edge.

The Messi > Ronaldo supporters I think point out that they play in the same league, both play for superb teams that are roughly equal, and both play for teams that are set up totally to get the very best out of them, and Messi is out performing him. Scores more goals, gets more assists.

Personally I'm sitting on the fence. Don't want to get drawn into any argument about players that don't play for United, don't even play in the same league we do, so don't really have any impact on us.

Both magical talents, and we're lucky to be able to watch them on a weekly basis, compared to the time of Best, Cruyff, Pele, Puskas, when you were lucky if you got to see them play 1 game in 4. For most of their matches the camera's weren't there, so if you weren't in the stadium, you never saw anything they did.

For the record, neither of them are as good as Maradona. Just my little opinion.

[tommyred]

Dec 10, 2012 22:11:55 GMT Bestie said:

In my view the Premier League is a better overall league than La Liga. I think it's more competitive top to bottom, and I think there are more teams that can really test the top, top teams every week.
That's why I think the high levels that Ronaldo got to in our league and the huge stats etc. he put up here are so impressive.

So you take that into account, and then he not only matched those stats in (my view) a slightly lesser league, but did what he should have done and raised his level. Purely impact-wise I'm not sure you can really say Messi's other gear is higher either.

And he did it straight-away. Messi has gotten continually better in La Liga over the course of what, 7 years? Who's to say that had Ronaldo been at Madrid and playing in La Liga week-in, week-out he wouldn't be posting the exact same figures as Messi?

You can't say he definitely would or wouldn't have. Which is why it so annoys me when people try to claim Messi as the outright better player, because (again, in my view), Ronaldo's achievements in the Premier League are under-rated or forgotten about.

Ronaldo's achievements in the Prem are brilliant indeed but I think it would be pretty foolish to suggest that Messi couldn't rip most Prem defences to shreds.

Nobody is forgetting about Ronaldo's achievements but the fact that Messi is so obviously better than him (and every other player ever) in La Liga suggests he would be similarly devastating in the Prem.

Only British people would ever use that argument against him.

Obviously we can't say for sure but it is pretty obvious how good he is and how good he'd be in any league.

Better than Ron.

[Bestie]

Dec 10, 2012 22:19:20 GMT tommyred said:

Dec 10, 2012 22:11:55 GMT Bestie said:

In my view the Premier League is a better overall league than La Liga. I think it's more competitive top to bottom, and I think there are more teams that can really test the top, top teams every week.
That's why I think the high levels that Ronaldo got to in our league and the huge stats etc. he put up here are so impressive.

So you take that into account, and then he not only matched those stats in (my view) a slightly lesser league, but did what he should have done and raised his level. Purely impact-wise I'm not sure you can really say Messi's other gear is higher either.

And he did it straight-away. Messi has gotten continually better in La Liga over the course of what, 7 years? Who's to say that had Ronaldo been at Madrid and playing in La Liga week-in, week-out he wouldn't be posting the exact same figures as Messi?

You can't say he definitely would or wouldn't have. Which is why it so annoys me when people try to claim Messi as the outright better player, because (again, in my view), Ronaldo's achievements in the Premier League are under-rated or forgotten about.

Ronaldo's achievements in the Prem are brilliant indeed but I think it would be pretty foolish to suggest that Messi couldn't rip most Prem defences to shreds.

Nobody is forgetting about Ronaldo's achievements but the fact that Messi is so obviously better than him (and every other player ever) in La Liga suggests he would be similarly devastating in the Prem.

Only British people would ever use that argument against him.

Obviously we can't say for sure but it is pretty obvious how good he is and how good he'd be in any league.

Better than Ron.

Ah Christ, I really hope you're saying that for badness/funnies otherwise there's no point in trying to have a discussion with you.

[tommyred]

The brackets were my opinion.

But he's obviously better than any other player playing today and if Ronaldo had played for City, Chelsea or Liverpool and not United I think you'd agree with me.

[Jayrannasaurus]

In my opinion it's a bit unfair to use the fact that Messi's only played for Barca as opposed to two/three previous clubs as a negative stat. After all, most fans love loyalty.

Also, as has been said in this thread, the fact that Ronnie proved himself here and went to Real, where he went up to another level is so true. The only thing is, that "higher" level is quite clearly inferior to Messi in terms of stats and generally the way they play. I just feel Messi brings more to the table overall.

Love Ronnie though, always will.

[Dan United]

If you have time here's all of his goals so far this year. It's not a short video.

But some of these are sublime. I'll be honest, he's converted me. I think he's a better player than Ronaldo - though I don't think it's as clear cut as some make out.


www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/players/lionel-messi/9733927/Lionel-Messis-86-goals-from-2012-that-saw-him-break-Gerd-Muellers-record.html

[JamBritRed]

Dec 11, 2012 5:01:35 GMT Jayrannasaurus said:

The only thing is, that "higher" level is quite clearly inferior to Messi in terms of stats and generally the way they play.

I just feel Messi brings more to the table overall.

OK now i like the tone of the discussion, but i would like to bring it back to my original query. i would like to address the above separately, thats why i split it up Jay.

for the first part, my question is why, in your opinion, is it that Messi is currently the most effective of the two. is it more a result of Messi's ability, or the fact that his ability is so beautifully complimented by Barca's set-up? had Ronnie had as long in that world class team, with the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Alves and Co. would he be putiing up such numbers?

as for the second part, i think u and i will differ on that. i feel strongly the complete opposite to that. i think Ronnie has more tools in his box. but that will be debated for many years to come. he did have the edge on the Free kicks, but recently it has fallen off though.