|
|
Post by Dan United on Jun 24, 2012 12:50:31 GMT
I'm with Jimbo here. As promising as Cleverly is, he hasn't shown enough for all the hype. If from what you've seen of him in the first team so far is enough for you to think he's going to be a star, it just highlights how starved we've been of world class midfielders in recent years. That's not to say he won't become a star, but he needs to do more than he already has done. He could just as easily be the next Anderson, who, let's not forget, was just as good, if not better than him at the start of the season. That isn't it though. It's that I've seen him come through the Academy, Reserves, and his loan spells. His time at Watford was where you could tell he was going big. Just looked a class apart. No, it wasn't. Because so many players have looked like the next best thing but failed to make the grade. |
|
|
|
Post by fletchabey on Jun 24, 2012 13:08:05 GMT
Might as well bring these up so we can have a refresh of his performances.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDtXiBxeccM&feature=player_detailpage
[/youtube]
Of course its fair to still have some questions over him, but he's been unlucky with impact injuries. We played better football when he was in the team than we achieved with an in form Carrick and Scholes partnership. He may not be the fully polished article, but he's mobile, comfortable on the ball and a smart passer. He has the qualities to make here big time I believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Jun 24, 2012 13:10:55 GMT
besto, you are now saying rooney and welbeck will rotate? are you serious, you think rooney will become a squad player? not a chance. the only times rooney will not play are through injury/suspension/desperate need of a rest. Again, I think we have different views on what "rotation" is. I don't mean Welbeck to play every second game ahead of Rooney, that is definitely a ridiculous notion. and you are talking about cleverley taking over full time from carrick...in 2-3 years. so for the next 2-3 years this is a moot point if we are talking about cleverley being a fixture in the side from next season onwards. you said about saving carrick for the big games. does this mean cleverley misses out? No, it means Carrick and Cleverley play together in the big games. Cleverley moves over to Carrick's "auto-starter" role for lesser matches, with the long-term aim being Cleverley playing every week with a partner beside him to constantly progress the squad. Like this, as an example: When Carrick is - - 18-23: Scholes every game + Another depending on form/match/injuries etc. (Carrick)
- 24-30: Carrick + Another depending etc. (Scholes/Cleverley)
- 31-33: Cleverley + Another depending etc. (Carrick/Whoever)
now i know all about injuries, suspensions, and squad rotation...and this fits in with my theory about cleverley AS OF YET only looking like a bit part player to me. because by bit part player i mean a player who is not always first choice when available. there are only x amount of players in our squad of this status, and i don't see cleverley joining them next season Yeah, we've totally missed each other's boats on this one. I see bit-part as 15-20 games a season including substitute appearences. Sorry. It seems you would expect Cleverley to be playing more than that. Although, you did say 'all he would ever be' was bit-part. Ergo my talking about beyond next season, because I do think that in a few years, we'll be talking about Cleverley as one of the players who's name goes on the teamsheet then we pick the rest on variables. I also notice you edited one of your posts to bring up my talking about Cleverley in the number 7 shirt. I said that part-joke/part-seriously. The joke was because it wasn't going to Kagawa, he wore 23 at Dortmund, and therefore the musical-numbers game fit. On a serious note, I think that the shirt is free, and Cleverley does have the potential to reach a level befitting the history of it. We could give it to someone else, but who do we have immediately lined up that is more suited to it? Don't forget, Beckham was given it as a young player, pretty established, but young. Ronaldo was given it but he started his United career from the bench. Cantona was given it as a punt signing that only came about because we wanted to do other business with Leeds. That isn't it though. It's that I've seen him come through the Academy, Reserves, and his loan spells. His time at Watford was where you could tell he was going big. Just looked a class apart. No, it wasn't. Because so many players have looked like the next best thing but failed to make the grade. Fine. Cleverley's time at Watford is when I started to believe he was going to cut it at the highest level for us. Better? |
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Jun 24, 2012 13:11:11 GMT
Meanwhile on RAWK, people discuss whether or not Lucas Levia is the best holding midfielder in the world......
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on Jun 24, 2012 13:13:49 GMT
one point i will raise you bestie. it's fair to say that cleverleys run in the first team started at the comm. shield last year, which was 5 days before his 22nd birthday. now i know every player is different, but if cleverley is gonna be the top player you think he is, isn't nearly 22 years old relatively late to break through? wilshere was back from loan and in the arsenal first team at 18.
seriously.i've got nowt against the kid and i think he's gonna be a good player. don't want to repeat myself but i just have doubts that he'll be this great player he's being hyped to be and i'm not sure he'll ever be a fixture in the side. i do hope you are right though
|
|
|
|
Post by fletchabey on Jun 24, 2012 13:17:31 GMT
Injuries have delayed him.
He's just been unlucky. Using Wilshere as an example is a joke, sorry. Hes the exception to the rule not the proof.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stew on Jun 24, 2012 13:18:54 GMT
A scouse supporter in work said to me just before he was crocked against Bolton that Clevs was nailed on to be young player of the year if he avoided injury. This lad talks a bit of sense despite his obvious failing but he said he was raging that we'd managed to fix our most obvious weakness in the middle of the park. So if even the scousers rate him...
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on Jun 24, 2012 13:26:49 GMT
Injuries have delayed him. yeah that's fair, although to what extent i wonder, he played 75-odd games while out on loan. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on Jun 24, 2012 13:28:28 GMT
He's just been unlucky. Using Wilshere as an example is a joke, sorry. Hes the exception to the rule not the proof. no he's not. loads of top players broke through in their teens. have you missed something? |
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Jun 24, 2012 13:37:17 GMT
 one point i will raise you bestie. it's fair to say that cleverleys run in the first team started at the comm. shield last year, which was 5 days before his 22nd birthday. now i know every player is different, but if cleverley is gonna be the top player you think he is, isn't nearly 22 years old relatively late to break through? wilshere was back from loan and in the arsenal first team at 18. seriously.i've got nowt against the kid and i think he's gonna be a good player. don't want to repeat myself but i just have doubts that he'll be this great player he's being hyped to be and i'm not sure he'll ever be a fixture in the side. i do hope you are right though I honestly don't. 22 isn't late, it's about right. There are obviously high-profile cases where players can get to the peak of their ability or close to it at an earlier age, but early 20's is when a player naturally breaks through IMO. Consistency, match-nouse etc. all come with age, and I don't think players can get that before they get into their 20's. I don't think anyone can to be honest, just thinking about non-football specific things like maturity, growing etc.. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan United on Jun 24, 2012 13:49:20 GMT
I have no issues with his age. It's unfair and unrealistic to expect every player to be the dogs bollocks at 18 simply because of players like Rooney and Wilshere. I just need to see him deliver on his promise over a period of time. I'm excited about his potential, but until he has unlocked that potential, that's all it is. I know he was unlucky with injuries last season, but that doesn't change the fact that his game time in the first team was limited.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on Jun 24, 2012 13:54:29 GMT
I have no issues with his age. It's unfair and unrealistic to expect every player to be the dogs bollocks at 18 simply because of players like Rooney and Wilshere. never said i expect every player to be the dogs bollocks at 18, you've not read it properly. i asked the question: don't top player usually break through in their teens? 'breaking through' and 'dogs bollocks' - big difference since asking that question i've actually thought of loads of top players who broke through at 20+. |
|
|
|
Post by Tatty on Jun 24, 2012 13:59:06 GMT
Injuries have delayed him. He's just been unlucky. Using Wilshere as an example is a joke, sorry. Hes the exception to the rule not the proof. Gerrard Scholes Beckham Lampard Joe Cole Fabregas Bale Sneijder Messi Ronaldo I could go on. |
|
|
|
Post by fletchabey on Jun 24, 2012 14:06:37 GMT
He's just been unlucky. Using Wilshere as an example is a joke, sorry. Hes the exception to the rule not the proof. no he's not. loads of top players broke through in their teens. have you missed something? Yes but were talking about midfielders. Very few central midfielders are teenagers. Wingers, strikers, attacking midfielders are more common with youngsters breaking through, roles that require less responsibility. Scholes, the legendary midfielder, did not break through in his teens. Xavi another midfielder great, was barely rated till his mid twenties. Gerrard i cannot precisely remember but wasnt he injury plagued till 20? Fabregas is good shout, but maybe that just shows Arsenals desperation to get youngsters in as quickly as possible, as well as their mismanagement of senior players. rushing Wilshere helped miss an entire season of football. |
|
|
|
Post by jimbonda on Jun 24, 2012 14:09:45 GMT
no he's not. loads of top players broke through in their teens. have you missed something? Yes but were talking about midfielders. Very few central midfielders are teenagers. Wingers, strikers, attacking midfielders are more common with youngsters breaking through. Scholes, the legendary midfielder, did not break through in his teens. Xavi another midfielder great, was barely rated till his mid twenties. i didn't say scholes did. your point about center mids is a good point and it has crossed my mind. would be interesting to have a read up on it. by the way. when i said i'd thought of loads of good players who broke through at 20+. well i've looked them up and half of them broke through at 19 or before! although i don't doubt there are more examples, again would be interesting to know |
|
