|
|
Post by originalskinz87 on Sept 6, 2014 14:50:58 GMT
I think its quite telling that Rooney's best 4 seasons for us we have finished the season empty handed. What is best for Rooney is clearly not the best for the team! Think Ronnie got it, personal accolades mean nothing if it doesn't help the team... Did Ronnie say that the day after the champions lg win 2008 when he tried to leverage himself a deal to Real? Or was it the day after that? You sound bitter!? Sometimes it's better to have loved and lost rather than never have loved at all? He was always a stand up player while here and respectable even after he left and to this day still is. The point I was making was a players contribution has to be put into context of the team over a season. Scoring goals when we are 1 or 2 up against a mid table team or scoring a single goal in a game we lose means very little. The goals that win us games counts for a lot more and goals against out direct rivals and of late Rooney has not been doing either of those things much. |
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Sept 6, 2014 14:52:14 GMT
See, that's wrong. People are saying that if it wasn't for Rooney, Kagawa might have been given a chance in the starting XI IN. HIS. ACTUAL. POSITION.There's a pretty big difference. De Gea as a right-back ... I love the glibness with which you address other people's posts -- "tripe" -- "wrong again" -- "nope" Not people's posts, but the content. Or, more specifically, the misrepresentation of a point I was making to suit the argument those people would like to argue against. Nope, that isn't what I said. Rooney is the alleged talisman/heartbeat/vitally important player for our side, so any of his personal contributions have to be measured alongside how those personal contributions benefitted the team. You want to measure 'contribution'? Okay, how're these: Rooney scored twenty-three goals last season. 5 of them were in games we didn't win, and those stats don't include the disgraceful fuck up away at Cardiff that cost us two points when he actually should have been selfish and scored himself but played a fucking awful pass instead. Only 4 of the twenty-three goals were against sides who finished n the top 10 of the League. Of those twenty-three goals, only 3 were against teams that finished above us - one against city (we lost 4-1) and two against Spurs (drew 2-2). He only scored 2 in the European Cup. In one game. The first group game. Are those the sorts of facts you're on about when offering up Wayne Rooney's personal contribution? Undroppable Captain and vital cog in our winning machine? Oh dear, wrong again. Or a deliberate strawman, I'm not sure. Okay, so only Rooney's statistics are considered this way. No one else's. Okay. Once more, no. You brought up Rooney's contribution, so I posted the counter-points to your stats. Or the actual match-influence those stats represented. You started the individual focus on Rooney's statistics. And sorry, "no one" was a strawman. It was only the 5 or so players you listed who had their seasons single handedly ruined by Rooney. Do you know what a strawman argument is? Because you've just done it. I didn't, and don't, say that five or so players had their season single-handedly ruined by Wayne Rooney. That is a complete misrepresentation of my point. Or am I being too insincere or shallow? |
|
|
|
Post by smithy2 on Sept 6, 2014 15:05:17 GMT
Did Ronnie say that the day after the champions lg win 2008 when he tried to leverage himself a deal to Real? Or was it the day after that? You sound bitter!? Sometimes it's better to have loved and lost rather than never have loved at all? He was always a stand up player while here and respectable even after he left and to this day still is. The point I was making was a players contribution has to be put into context of the team over a season. Scoring goals when we are 1 or 2 up against a mid table team or scoring a single goal in a game we lose means very little. The goals that win us games counts for a lot more and goals against out direct rivals and of late Rooney has not been doing either of those things much. Nah I'm not bitter at all but I think its worth pointing that out especially if your going to use Ronnie as an example to Rooney on how to be a team player. Footballers today are mercenaries they are all out for themselves so its unfair when we attack Rooney for doing the same thing. Ronaldo couldnt wait to leave us, Vidic chose Italy over retiring a united player as did Evra and we have seen many fan favourites come and go. On the pitch Rooney works hard, covers ground and tracks back ( often too much). He has played with some of the best and has made them shine but last year players around him struggled and I think its unfair to blame Rooney. LvG would agree it seems since he has sold 3 of those players already and yet Rooney remains. |
|
|
|
Post by stringer on Sept 6, 2014 15:21:59 GMT
Danny Welbeck didn't get the chance to find his scoring boots playing out of position because Wayne Rooney was in the way. Hernandez had a substantial presence when he was able to play with Kagawa and Mata. That didn't happen very often because Wayne Rooney was in the way. Mata didn't get the opportunity to play in his best position because ... Wayne Rooney was in the way. I'm not saying we definitely would have been better off without Wayne Rooney last season, but there is one common denominator for a lot of the issues with particular players underperforming. Oh, and should Rooney really be given a chance? Like Kagawa was you mean? |
|
|
|
Post by stringer on Sept 6, 2014 15:23:52 GMT
2013/14 Prem Season 29Games 17Goals 10 assists Not bad considering the way we played last year under a new manager. I say lets wait and see how he gets on in the next couple of months before we talk of " selling him" Great personal stats those. How'd the team do, how many games did we win? I didn't bring up Rooney's stats. Someone else did, and you then "explained" why they are somehow invalid. |
|
|
|
Post by Bestie on Sept 6, 2014 15:34:41 GMT
Danny Welbeck didn't get the chance to find his scoring boots playing out of position because Wayne Rooney was in the way. Hernandez had a substantial presence when he was able to play with Kagawa and Mata. That didn't happen very often because Wayne Rooney was in the way. Mata didn't get the opportunity to play in his best position because ... Wayne Rooney was in the way. I'm not saying we definitely would have been better off without Wayne Rooney last season, but there is one common denominator for a lot of the issues with particular players underperforming.Oh, and should Rooney really be given a chance? Like Kagawa was you mean? Exactly, thanks. Didn't say anywhere that any players' season had been single-handedly ruined by Rooney. In fact, I specifically said Rooney wasn't the only reason players underperformed. Great personal stats those. How'd the team do, how many games did we win? I didn't bring up Rooney's stats. Someone else did, and you then "explained" why they are somehow invalid. I didn't say you brought up Rooney's stats. You invited everyone to consider the players' contributions: Great personal stats those. How'd the team do, how many games did we win? So we shouldn't consider anyone's contribution last season because we finished 7th? That makes zero sense. So I did. |
|
_
United School Boy
Posts: 0 
|
Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 15:34:36 GMT
Regarding the stats - you could take them two ways He had a great year despite the team performing shite or you could say he was playing for himself and that undermined the team I'm undecided - maybe that outrageous goal at West Ham could swing it  |
|
_
United School Boy
100%
Posts: 0
|
Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 16:25:48 GMT
Regarding the stats - you could take them two ways He had a great year despite the team performing shite or you could say he was playing for himself and that undermined the team I'm undecided - maybe that outrageous goal at West Ham could swing it Great goal that against West Ham, Becks was better. Perhaps you could add the nine yellow cards with his 23 Goals in 52 games last season. In particular those stunning petulant performances when we lost against Stoke, Spurs, Everton he scored no goals but got cards. Or how about his fantastic displays away to Olympiakos, Bayern, and that dazzling display against the Scouses at home.
At our lowest ebb he played poorly and rarely expressed any leadership and was still given an extra contractual boost. How was that good for squad morale? He's increasingly a liability and its questionable how he will behave with decent competition and a strong manager again.
|
|
_
United School Boy
Posts: 0
|
Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 17:03:11 GMT
That's the point - stats can be made to look like whatever you want them to Did well when we were on top in a game but when we were up against it he disappeared or got the hump - compare him as captain with Keano - he'd rip your balls off if he thought you were letting the team down - where is the new Keano or Vida? Rooney is just not inspirational enough to be captain - this is why I was hoping we'd get Hummels - would make a great captain IMO ..and we've never had a German play for the first team, which being half German, has always disappointed me  |
|
|
|
Post by stringer on Sept 6, 2014 18:20:19 GMT
That's the point - stats can be made to look like whatever you want them to Did well when we were on top in a game but when we were up against it he disappeared or got the hump - compare him as captain with Keano - he'd rip your balls off if he thought you were letting the team down - where is the new Keano or Vida? Rooney is just not inspirational enough to be captain - this is why I was hoping we'd get Hummels - would make a great captain IMO ..and we've never had a German play for the first team, which being half German, has always disappointed me Especially when you hate the player! |
|
|
|
Post by stringer on Sept 6, 2014 18:29:18 GMT
Rooney was instrumental in the comeback from 2-0 down at Hull City
It's funny how people only focus on the negative
It's like they don't like Rooney or something
|
|
|
|
Post by stringer on Sept 6, 2014 18:36:44 GMT
Does everyone think RVP gave 100% for Moyes last season?
|
|
_
United School Boy
Posts: 0
|
Post by _ on Sept 6, 2014 18:48:32 GMT
Does everyone think RVP gave 100% for Moyes last season? I think he gave 0% for Moyes TBH but he gave 100% to Fergie I don't suppose we'll ever know the fully story on that though |
|
|
|
Post by bullseye on Sept 6, 2014 18:55:11 GMT
For me it is all about this season and what he have done so far, and that has been shite. He has shown no commitment, no leadership, first touch and positioning has been horrible. For that reason I hope he will be on the bench. Until he can find some old magic again, I don't think he will help our first XI much. He was trying too much last season, and now he is struggling big time to find his place again which can be helpful for the whole team.
|
|
|
|
Post by ManicRed on Sept 6, 2014 18:57:50 GMT
Rooney was instrumental in the comeback from 2-0 down at Hull City It's funny how people only focus on the negative It's like they don't like Rooney or something Sorry Stringer, but one swallow does not make a summer. Your missing the point on Rooney and i can see by your posts your obviously a Rooney fan. You have to remember alot of us here share the same opinion, even IF rooney went on and scored 80+ goals and we won the double. He would still be a over hyped over paid asshole. He does not or should he get any plaudides, the past 3 years he has gotten worse and to back that up you can pick up any rag at the moment and most all say "he is past it" or he has "find form" only a matter of time before Sterling replaces him as the #10 for England Article today i read compared Rooney to Owen & Fowler both played first team from the age of 17 like Rooney were and simply were burnt out by 30 |
|
