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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:08:00 GMT
It's not about having heads in the sand but recognising other players that need a more urgent upgrade. Say Rashford is sold and replaced by Osimhen. Great, he's a world class player. But the problem of relying on one player to score all the goals is still there, the problem of having a player need to play 60+ games a season because we can't give him a rest is still there. Osimhen gets injured, who's in? Martial. Brilliant. Who is the option on the left if Garnacho is out? Sancho. Brilliant. You don't improve your team by getting rid of your highest performers, regardless of whether you think they aren't actually all that, and keeping the absolute dross as reserve. You get rid of the dross, and make the current highest performers the back up's. Say those two leave, along with Elanga. That's maybe 80M in the door, and that goes towards getting Osimhen in. That's a proper improvement. He starts up front, Rashford and Garnacho can compete on the left. At least you know you're getting 20+ goals from Rashford, seeing as he's delivered that in 3 of the last 4 seasons. It's like deciding we need a new starting centre back due to Varane's injury record and deciding to get rid of him, but keeping Maguire as back up. That's backwards as all hell. Make Varane the back up and get bloody shot of Maguire. Is Antony the answer on the right? Honestly I'm on the fence. But if you sign a new quality right sided attacker you keep Antony as his competition, you don't make Elanga the back up. I don't think anyone on this board thinks Rashford is a world beater but he's the least of our worries. If your doctor tells you you have brain cancer and an ingrowing toe nail on the same day, you don't tell them to focus on getting this toe nail sorted. It's an annoyance that'll have to be sorted eventually, but maybe the brain cancer takes precedence! There are lots of people who reckon Marcus Rashford is world class. They said so and I was shouted at when I disagreed. I'm pretty certain someone said they would not swap him for M'bappe FFS. There is the odd one who becomes seriously mealy-mouthed about it when it comes to trying to come across as reasonable after the fact when they realise sensible poster opinion is that Rashford isn't infallible but they have been giving it a big one about not criticising him. Rashford is considered a high performer. He isn't, not in the wider context. For a shit Glazer Era United he is. He is on huge wages and treated as basically beyond reproach by some when the reality is he is quite rubbish. Top teams do not win things with shit attackers. It's why I have given up on Fernandes as well. Both players are considered indispensable but neither would look out of place as a biggish fish in a small pond of Leeds or Everton. We will win neither of the trophies that we really want with either as a lynchpin of the team. I cannot see Rashford or Fernandes having the humility to accept a squad role after being falsely hyped for so long. I want us to upgrade the dross and the higher performance dross. Both are part of the tumour for me. |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:09:44 GMT
He's overtaken Cole's United record too, 122 goals to 121. Admittedly Cole took fewer games, but he was also, what, 24 when he signed for United and stayed till he was 31? So had all his best, peak years here, whereas Rashford's early seasons were as an 17, 18 & 19 year old. Cole's goal per games ratio during his best 3 seasons? 1 in 1.97 games. Rashfords? 1 in 2.14 games. Cole was also an out and out number 9 whereas Rashford is more a wide player. And Cole never once managed 29 goals in a season for United. Despite playing with Giggs, not Sancho. Scholes not Fred. Cantona not Martial. Keane not McTominay. Sheringham not Weghorst. Beckham not Sanchez. Yet Cole is a club legend and the other over-rated and should be moved on asap? Cole won us trophies. The really big ones. And his goals won us the League. |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:11:30 GMT
Took me more than a decade of the internet/social media age to see this, some foreign players effectively get unofficial fan-clubs with endless patience + defence of horrible performances (e.g. Martial) whilst players that come through the "fabled" academy (an essence of the club - no transfer fees, either) are held to ethereal standards and blasted as overrated/shit by our own fanbase if they don't consistently meet those standards. No player is above criticism and if they're poor then it's deserved but seeing some of the shite and needless abuse on there is just embarrassing. There are usually obvious tells nowadays with these accounts, the main culprits seem to have Pogba or Martial avi's. To call a player that is the 3rd highest goalscorer in Europe "over rated" is just ridiculous. Has he had poor games this season? Of course he has but some of the shit you see is just unjustified. The thread I posted literally explains why the goals mask a very bang average player. That was the fucking point Paul. |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:16:24 GMT
Exactly, if they have a bad performance - fair enough, we're entitled to call it out and criticize our players. It doesn't mean that every bad performance serves as proof of some divine determination that said player is shit, should be sold, or isn't good enough to wear the shirt. There's often no middleground, for some reason. Case in point being a thread like the one above (e.g.) - immediately after a bad result, here's a United-aligned twitter "fan" creating a thread specifically trying to demerit one of our best players this season. What exactly is the point, what's the end-game here? It often feels like we're through the looking glass, and even in places where we're unashamedly looking to surround ourselves with partisan pro-United sentiment (RoM) this type of stuff is ever-present. Wind it in with this "fan" business. The endgame is maybe having a few more people twig on to the fact Rashford is as much of a detriment to our team as the likes of a Fred or Maguire. Everyone is over the moon that Maguire has been sidelined and want Fred's head on a plate. Yet Rashford continues to get a pass and excuses made for him. Not that surprising to see some people getting frustrated with that and digging up facts that show how overhyped the player is. Especially after yet another no-show in a match we lost. |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on May 8, 2023 9:22:34 GMT
I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on Rashford ad infinitum, Bestie, I feel like it's pointless at this stage - but comparing the detriment Maguire brings to the team to Rashford's contribution is pretty far out!
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on May 8, 2023 9:25:02 GMT
He's overtaken Cole's United record too, 122 goals to 121. Admittedly Cole took fewer games, but he was also, what, 24 when he signed for United and stayed till he was 31? So had all his best, peak years here, whereas Rashford's early seasons were as an 17, 18 & 19 year old. Cole's goal per games ratio during his best 3 seasons? 1 in 1.97 games. Rashfords? 1 in 2.14 games. Cole was also an out and out number 9 whereas Rashford is more a wide player. And Cole never once managed 29 goals in a season for United. Despite playing with Giggs, not Sancho. Scholes not Fred. Cantona not Martial. Keane not McTominay. Sheringham not Weghorst. Beckham not Sanchez. Yet Cole is a club legend and the other over-rated and should be moved on asap? Cole won us trophies. The really big ones. And his goals won us the League. The rest of the players that surrounded Cole, like Keane + Cantona + Scholes + Giggs, didn't contribute to sides that were able to win trophies? That was the point here, Rashford is surrounded by dross in quite a few positions and he's measured by his inability to win us trophies. Insane double standards. |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2023 9:31:32 GMT
No player is above criticism and if they're poor then it's deserved but seeing some of the shite and needless abuse on there is just embarrassing. There are usually obvious tells nowadays with these accounts, the main culprits seem to have Pogba or Martial avi's. To call a player that is the 3rd highest goalscorer in Europe "over rated" is just ridiculous. Has he had poor games this season? Of course he has but some of the shit you see is just unjustified. The thread I posted literally explains why the goals mask a very bang average player. That was the fucking point Paul. All it does is show an account that has cherry picked stats and provide what is clearly an agenda against a particular player. Am I saying he's world class? Not at all. Is he beyond criticism? Again no. But I'm not going to dismiss him for what he's done this season either. If we had players around him that were doing their bit this wouldn't be nearly as big an issue. Next season is where he proves whether or not this is indeed a "purple patch". Until then I'll give the lad credit where its deserved. |
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Post by Reduntildeath on May 8, 2023 9:32:50 GMT
Cole won us trophies. The really big ones. And his goals won us the League. The rest of the players that surrounded Cole, like Keane + Cantona + Scholes + Giggs, didn't contribute to sides that were able to win trophies? That was the point here, Rashford is surrounded by dross in quite a few positions and he's measured by his inability to win us trophies. Insane double standards. Exactly this! I watched a brilliant Andy Cole showreel-type thing online earlier this weekend,he was the shining jewel in a crown studded with others. Coronation pun not intended! |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:36:45 GMT
The thread I posted literally explains why the goals mask a very bang average player. That was the fucking point Paul. All it does is show an account that has cherry picked stats and provide what is clearly an agenda against a particular player. Am I saying he's world class? Not at all. Is he beyond criticism? Again no. But I'm not going to dismiss him for what he's done this season either. If we had players around him that were doing their bit this wouldn't be nearly as big an issue. Next season is where he proves whether or not this is indeed a "purple patch". Until then I'll give the lad credit where its deserved. Cherry picked stats.  i.e. Every stat except goals? Always an excuse, 'those are cherry picked stats', 'it's an agenda'. It was a bloody purple patch and a bloody good one. But continuing to claim it was anything otherwise is the idiotic agenda. |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:39:23 GMT
I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on Rashford ad infinitum, Bestie, I feel like it's pointless at this stage - but comparing the detriment Maguire brings to the team to Rashford's contribution is pretty far out! Not on here anymore, but in wider online/media the levels of excuse-finding and protectionism for Maguire is similar to the levels of 'it's an agenda' you get when criticising Rashford. |
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 9:42:03 GMT
Cole won us trophies. The really big ones. And his goals won us the League. The rest of the players that surrounded Cole, like Keane + Cantona + Scholes + Giggs, didn't contribute to sides that were able to win trophies? That was the point here, Rashford is surrounded by dross in quite a few positions and he's measured by his inability to win us trophies. Insane double standards. Of course they did. The point is Cole would not be considered as much of a club legend if he had scored goals but we had been a perennial almost-was team. |
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2023 9:46:10 GMT
All it does is show an account that has cherry picked stats and provide what is clearly an agenda against a particular player. Am I saying he's world class? Not at all. Is he beyond criticism? Again no. But I'm not going to dismiss him for what he's done this season either. If we had players around him that were doing their bit this wouldn't be nearly as big an issue. Next season is where he proves whether or not this is indeed a "purple patch". Until then I'll give the lad credit where its deserved. Cherry picked stats. i.e. Every stat except goals? Always an excuse, 'those are cherry picked stats', 'it's an agenda'. It was a bloody purple patch and a bloody good one. But continuing to claim it was anything otherwise is the idiotic agenda. It's become a pointless argument anyway. You clearly dont like the guy. I'll continue to see the good and the not so good and judge it accordingly. Cba going around in circles. |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on May 8, 2023 9:47:24 GMT
18 goal contributions (11 goals, 7 assists - 19 y/o)
22 goal contributions (13 goals, 9 assists - 20 y/o)
23 goal contributions (13 goals, 10 assists - 21 y/o)
34 goal contributions (22 Goals, 12 Assists - 22 y/o)
36 goal contributions (21 goals, 15 assists - 23 y/o)
7 goal contributions (5 goals, 2 assists - 24 y/o)
40 goal contributions (29 goals, 11 assists - 25 y/o)
These are cherry-picked stats that illustrate a player that has made a noteworthy contribution to the side since the age of 19.
If you ignore last year, which was an abomination for all but a few (one) players, the general trend is decidedly upwards in almost every category.
Considering he's been played at LW, CF and RW at times, not bad going.
If I were a betting man (which I am), I'd wager that trend continues.
I wonder, if he reaches 45 goal contributions, and then 50+, will this criticism still prevail?
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Post by mightyez on May 8, 2023 9:51:45 GMT
I think we have bigger fish to fry than Rashford Bestie.
MCT, Fred, Maguire, Jones, donny, martial, Elanga, Sancho.
Much bigger concerns there and they need addressing before we even glance in Rashford’s direction
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Post by Bestie on May 8, 2023 10:07:25 GMT
18 goal contributions (11 goals, 7 assists - 19 y/o) 22 goal contributions (13 goals, 9 assists - 20 y/o) 23 goal contributions (13 goals, 10 assists - 21 y/o) 34 goal contributions (22 Goals, 12 Assists - 22 y/o) 36 goal contributions (21 goals, 15 assists - 23 y/o) 7 goal contributions (5 goals, 2 assists - 24 y/o) 40 goal contributions (29 goals, 11 assists - 25 y/o) These are cherry-picked stats that illustrate a player that has made a noteworthy contribution to the side since the age of 19. If you ignore last year, which was an abomination for all but a few (one) player, the general trend is decidedly upwards in almost every category. Considering he's been played at LW, CF and RW at times, not bad going. If I were a betting man (which I am), I'd wager that trend continues. I wonder, if he reaches 45 goal contributions, and then 50+, will this criticism still prevail? How many assists does Andy Cole have? Why is Rashford measured in 'contributions'? And how many of those seasons did those 'contributions' result in us winning something? |
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i.e. Every stat except goals? Always an excuse, 'those are cherry picked stats', 'it's an agenda'.