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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jun 5, 2016 12:27:05 GMT
I would say this - firstly, I think the country will be worse off in the long run anyway. The short term shock would be bad and most economic forecasts suggest we'd be worse off for leaving even as far forward as 2030. Hard to predict much further than then. Secondly, the long term for me personally could be two+ years unemployment which would just totally fuck me for years and years. Those economic forecasts commissioned by Arch-In campaigner George Osbourne of course. The 'threat' of mass long term unemployment feels like yet another scare tactic thrown about that is likely to be proven incorrect. You said it yourself, nobody really knows. Lots of different places and people do forecasts. According to this article 86% of economists believe Brexit would harm the UK in the long term. But as you say, no one knows for sure. It comes down to your gut at the end of the day, and what you think will happen. |
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jun 5, 2016 12:27:53 GMT
Rustin Cohle Pretty sure all those politicians have degrees in Politics, and I don't trust a single one of them.  I'm not being paid millions by big corporations though... Yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:29:41 GMT
It's definitely a punt. Nobody truly knows if we'll be better off staying and nobody truly knows that the possible benefits of leaving will ultimately come to fruition. As you say it's very much a gut feeling vote.
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jun 5, 2016 12:31:01 GMT
Its arguably the most divisive issue in UK politics today. It illicits the same reactions that abortions and guns do in the USA. Anyone who knows what they're talking about will have long since taken a side. It is. But surely most people can see benefits and negatives on both sides. I can, which means I won't judge anyone who votes either way and understand people's reasons for wanting to leave/stay. I've been very much stay since the news of the referendum came out. So as far as I'm concerned the leave campaign had to try and convince me to change by giving clear reasons for why leaving will benefit me and the nation long term. They've failed to do this to me. The way I see it. I know how this country works as part of the EU (for the most part, law making aside  ). Yeah it's not perfect but it works for me and I'm not sure leaving would. It's very possible it could and maybe it would benefit us all long term but I prefer to not take the risk that things could be better in 20 years. Oh for sure. I definitely see benefits on both sides. As long as a Leaver isn't one of those 'British jobs for British people, leave the EU and kick out the foreigns and we'll restart the empire!' people who I have unfortunately met a few times then usually we can have a civilised debate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:33:30 GMT
It is. But surely most people can see benefits and negatives on both sides. I can, which means I won't judge anyone who votes either way and understand people's reasons for wanting to leave/stay. I've been very much stay since the news of the referendum came out. So as far as I'm concerned the leave campaign had to try and convince me to change by giving clear reasons for why leaving will benefit me and the nation long term. They've failed to do this to me. The way I see it. I know how this country works as part of the EU (for the most part, law making aside ). Yeah it's not perfect but it works for me and I'm not sure leaving would. It's very possible it could and maybe it would benefit us all long term but I prefer to not take the risk that things could be better in 20 years. Oh for sure. I definitely see benefits on both sides. As long as a Leaver isn't one of those 'British jobs for British people, leave the EU and kick out the foreigns and we'll restart the empire!' people who I have unfortunately met a few times then usually we can have a civilised debate. Unfortunately this is an all too common argument and you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the amount of people that are basing their vote on this one thing. All this "Britain for the British" nonsense from many uneducated leavers is another thing which just makes me edge further over to the stay side. |
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Post by Bestie on Jun 5, 2016 12:36:25 GMT
It's definitely a punt. Nobody truly knows if we'll be better off staying and nobody truly knows that the possible benefits of leaving will ultimately come to fruition. As you say it's very much a gut feeling vote. Well we can be sure of what staying in looks like because we've had it for the last 20-odd years. Except that even that picture has been/is getting, I don't want to seem biased and say worse, but certainly more imposing. Things like the Europol (European combined police force), addition of (economically weaker) new members all the time, endless new laws, regulations, restrictions created by Brussels and demanded be implemented nationally. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:40:48 GMT
It's definitely a punt. Nobody truly knows if we'll be better off staying and nobody truly knows that the possible benefits of leaving will ultimately come to fruition. As you say it's very much a gut feeling vote. Well we can be sure of what staying in looks like because we've had it for the last 20-odd years. Except that the way it has been/is getting, I don't want to seem biased and say worse, but certainly more imposing. Things like the Europol (European combined police force), addition of (economically weaker) new members all the time, endless new laws, regulations, restrictions created by Brussels and demanded be implemented nationally. Yeah by that comment I meant we don't know if we're going to be better off staying in as opposed to leaving. See it's things like Europol that I don't really get. I don't get how that is a reason for leaving? Surely that means better communication between EU members on security and in turn making people safer? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:41:55 GMT
Oh for sure. I definitely see benefits on both sides. As long as a Leaver isn't one of those 'British jobs for British people, leave the EU and kick out the foreigns and we'll restart the empire!' people who I have unfortunately met a few times then usually we can have a civilised debate. Unfortunately this is an all too common argument and you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the amount of people that are basing their vote on this one thing. All this " Britain for the British" nonsense from many uneducated leavers is another thing which just makes me edge further over to the stay side. Why is that a bad thing? I'm not of the opinion that all 'foreigners' should be kicked out, most do a great job of adding to our society but open borders when we're already beyond full needs to stop. I quite like things like the NHS, it's beyond breaking point as it is, we can't cope with more. Interested to know, where do you live? I'm sure this has an impact on where peoples vote is at. I know me and Rustin live in London and my vote is swayed by that, and his seemingly isn't in regards to immigration (like I said, not immigration for work) where if I still lived in Manchester I don't think I'd be swayed as much. 'Uneducated leavers', for having a different opinion than your own, would show you to be uneducated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:48:07 GMT
Unfortunately this is an all too common argument and you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the amount of people that are basing their vote on this one thing. All this " Britain for the British" nonsense from many uneducated leavers is another thing which just makes me edge further over to the stay side. Why is that a bad thing? I'm not of the opinion that all 'foreigners' should be kicked out, most do a great job of adding to our society but open borders when we're already beyond full needs to stop. I quite like things like the NHS, it's beyond breaking point as it is, we can't cope with more. Interested to know, where do you live? I'm sure this has an impact on where peoples vote is at. I know me and Rustin live in London and my vote is swayed by that, and his seemingly isn't in regards to immigration (like I said, not immigration for work) where if I still lived in Manchester I don't think I'd be swayed as much. 'Uneducated leavers', for having a different opinion than your own, would show you to be uneducated. I clearly wasn't referring to all leavers as uneducated. I was talking about people who are basing their vote solely on the belief that if we leave we're going to kick loads of immigrants out of the country. I call that very uneducated. I live in Wigan and this may differ from other parts of the country but most people who tend to make comments like wanting "Britian for the British" are the kind joining in EDL marches. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:50:52 GMT
Why is that a bad thing? I'm not of the opinion that all 'foreigners' should be kicked out, most do a great job of adding to our society but open borders when we're already beyond full needs to stop. I quite like things like the NHS, it's beyond breaking point as it is, we can't cope with more. Interested to know, where do you live? I'm sure this has an impact on where peoples vote is at. I know me and Rustin live in London and my vote is swayed by that, and his seemingly isn't in regards to immigration (like I said, not immigration for work) where if I still lived in Manchester I don't think I'd be swayed as much. 'Uneducated leavers', for having a different opinion than your own, would show you to be uneducated. I clearly wasn't referring to all leavers as uneducated. I was talking about people who are basing their vote solely on the belief that if we leave we're going to kick loads of immigrants out of the country. I call that very uneducated. I live in Wigan and this may differ from other parts of the country but most people who tend to make comments like wanting "Britian for the British" are the kind joining in EDL marches. I'd quite like us to look after ourselves first and foremost, if that makes me racist then so be it. Shitty way of getting your point across. EDIT: Not soley based on leaving the E.U, the current government has a lot to answer for away from all that, like sending India millions of pounds in aid, then for their Government to announce a Space programme a day later. |
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jun 5, 2016 12:55:05 GMT
Unfortunately this is an all too common argument and you wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the amount of people that are basing their vote on this one thing. All this " Britain for the British" nonsense from many uneducated leavers is another thing which just makes me edge further over to the stay side. Why is that a bad thing? I'm not of the opinion that all 'foreigners' should be kicked out, most do a great job of adding to our society but open borders when we're already beyond full needs to stop. I quite like things like the NHS, it's beyond breaking point as it is, we can't cope with more. Interested to know, where do you live? I'm sure this has an impact on where peoples vote is at. I know me and Rustin live in London and my vote is swayed by that, and his seemingly isn't in regards to immigration (like I said, not immigration for work) where if I still lived in Manchester I don't think I'd be swayed as much. 'Uneducated leavers', for having a different opinion than your own, would show you to be uneducated. I have no problem with legitimate immigration concerns. A lot of arguments around it are fair. What I have a problem with is people who use immigration as a shroud for their xenophobia or sometimes even racism. The kind who will judge people because of where they're from. I was talking about having a Dominos the other day and someone in their fifties said 'oh I want to try their pizza but I won't go there.' When I asked why, they said it was because 'its full of Polish people.' |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:57:25 GMT
Why is that a bad thing? I'm not of the opinion that all 'foreigners' should be kicked out, most do a great job of adding to our society but open borders when we're already beyond full needs to stop. I quite like things like the NHS, it's beyond breaking point as it is, we can't cope with more. Interested to know, where do you live? I'm sure this has an impact on where peoples vote is at. I know me and Rustin live in London and my vote is swayed by that, and his seemingly isn't in regards to immigration (like I said, not immigration for work) where if I still lived in Manchester I don't think I'd be swayed as much. 'Uneducated leavers', for having a different opinion than your own, would show you to be uneducated. I have no problem with legitimate immigration concerns. A lot of arguments around it are fair. What I have a problem with is people who use immigration as a shroud for their xenophobia or sometimes even racism. The kind who will judge people because of where they're from. I was talking about having a Dominos the other day and someone in their fifties said 'oh I want to try their pizza but I won't go there.' When I asked why, they said it was because 'its full of Polish people.' That's a minority as far as I'm aware, the way it's being painted in here to justify some arguments is that it's a majority. Anyone who votes leave = Racist/stupid/old Go to any city in Europe where brits have moved to, and the same minority views will exist |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 13:00:37 GMT
I have no problem with legitimate immigration concerns. A lot of arguments around it are fair. What I have a problem with is people who use immigration as a shroud for their xenophobia or sometimes even racism. The kind who will judge people because of where they're from. I was talking about having a Dominos the other day and someone in their fifties said 'oh I want to try their pizza but I won't go there.' When I asked why, they said it was because 'its full of Polish people.' Bollocks. That's the way you've interpreted it, that isn't what I said. I was talking about a section of people who are on the leave side. In no way did I say Anyone who votes leave = racist/stupid/old. On the news a couple of weeks ago they were going around the country asking people about this vote, to show the sheer lack of understanding what people have on the issue. The amount of people who only spoke about immigration and foreigners was incredible. This vote is about so much more than immigration. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 13:05:04 GMT
That's a minority as far as I'm aware, the way it's being painted in here to justify some arguments is that it's a majority. Anyone who votes leave = Racist/stupid/old Bollocks. That's the way you've interpreted it, that isn't what I said. I was talking about a section of people who are on the leave side. In no way did I say Anyone who votes leave = racist/stupid/old. On the news a couple of weeks ago they were going around the country asking people about this vote, to show the sheer lack of understanding what people have on the issue. The amount of people who only spoke about immigration and foreigners was incredible. This vote is about so much more than immigration. So there's something behind it then. Just because you have a different opinion it's all bollocks? Also did you have a think about agendas and what makes a good interview? I bet they didn't go and interview people in Chelsea and Hammersmith. |
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jun 5, 2016 13:07:59 GMT
I have no problem with legitimate immigration concerns. A lot of arguments around it are fair. What I have a problem with is people who use immigration as a shroud for their xenophobia or sometimes even racism. The kind who will judge people because of where they're from. I was talking about having a Dominos the other day and someone in their fifties said 'oh I want to try their pizza but I won't go there.' When I asked why, they said it was because 'its full of Polish people.' That's a minority as far as I'm aware, the way it's being painted in here to justify some arguments is that it's a majority. Anyone who votes leave = Racist/stupid/old Go to any city in Europe where brits have moved to, and the same minority views will exist It is a minority, but its bigger than it should be. Only anecdoatal evidence which is flawed, but from personal experience at least half of outers I've met over the age of 40 have been like that. Not all Leavers are like that. I certainly don't think anyone on this forum is like that. Most Leavers are sensible people you can rationally discuss things with, which was my original point a few posts ago. |
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