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Post by jimbonda on Jan 25, 2013 13:07:49 GMT
Anyone who can't see the connection between the common hatred of Barca and the attitude of the average ABU will eventually get there. You earn that hatred by beating everyone else, and winning everything. Sure you'll have a little help along the way with decisions, creating a minor conspiracy that refs favor you but that happens when everyone wants every decision to go against you. Just like United have had some hateable characters in the past, so they're going through a patch where they have players like Pedro, Alves, Busquets and Valdez who annoy the living shit out of everyone who watches them. I dislike Barca, but more because we lost to them in two consecutive finals. That and the fact that they steamroll everyone, it's less exciting and, in essence, every opponent becomes the underdog - who we all support. Makes sense to me at least. ^ true that jay. i loved graeme souness honesty when he was talking about the prick suarez. they were talking about him being a great player, carrying the dippers, every dipper loves him and rightly so. then he said for non-liverpool fans there was 'a lot to dislike'. that's not actually relevant to this lot but good a place to say it as any. |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Jan 25, 2013 13:08:25 GMT
I don't dislike Barca. I just dislike how the Spanish league promotes diving and the antics in their games. Barcelona don't need to do that.
I respect them, but I am extremely frustrated that we couldn't counter their tactics given the chances that we had - and those were really good opportunities as well! What's even more frustrating is that Chelski did it last year by placing 10 men in front of goal and that seems the only way to work against them.
But generally, I don't really care for their success, since they aren't our main rivals in the Premier League. Just want United to win the 20th, 21st and 22nd title before Fergie retires.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 13:31:38 GMT
if you hate every team in the spanish league and almost every player then you're entitled to that opinion carbon. if not, and it's just that you hate barcelona, who are nowhere near the worst team for it, then there's something else going on, and it's because they win everything and they're on a pedestal, and they knocked us out of two finals. no, that is untrue - to my eyes (which you lot seem to think is the obvious wrong opinion and everyone should submit to the same thoughts) Barcelona and the most visible club in the La Liga (followed by Real Madrid), I have no opinion on the other teams because honestly, who really cares what the lower teams are up to? the media doesnt, the spanish fa doesn't. What does annoy me the most about Barcelona is that people (I'm looking at Jim mostly on this one (followed by Jay for a comment a few posts ago)) absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge that Barcelona and indeed Messi do anything at all wrong and decide to overt attention from it by saying "well they play the best football, that's why you hate them". People saying that people like me "will eventually get there" or "is a Messi hater" also need to open there eyes and see the bigger picture. Swings and roundabouts my friends, swings and roundabouts. |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Jan 25, 2013 13:37:38 GMT
I don't have either of those opinions Carbon, you've left me a bit baffled? I agree they do wrong and annoying things (hence the reference to the diving bunch of players) and I don't think the play the best football, they just win everything. I was under the impression I was elucidating the bigger picture  |
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Post by Jayrannasaurus on Jan 25, 2013 13:42:40 GMT
And that, my friends, is how you derail a thread topic |
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Post by JamBritRed on Jan 25, 2013 13:54:51 GMT
Bringing this back to the original question for a sec, IE. Messi's use of HGH.
Do i think it is OK that he used HGH as a youth? normally yes, but seeing as he is a sportsman, i do think it has given him an advantage in his sport. i would not ban him for it though.
do i think he would be as great today without it? NO. IMO he is an anomaly. he is, IMHO, stronger than the average person of his build (hence why he can bounce off most of the tackles), and that is mainly because of his HGH use as a youth.
Would i retrospectively strip him of any accolades that he has accumulated over his career because of his HGH use? NO. FIFA and WADA have known about his use from day one, to strip him of his titles after wouldn't be fair, and would be a PR disaster for both organisations.
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Post by ScholesEvilTwin on Jan 25, 2013 13:58:28 GMT
There have been a few cases around the world - i'd say the biggest would be Maradona at USA 94, but by and large footballers aren't largely tested. The use of performance enhancing drugs seems low but i'd say there isn't enough collaboration between governing bodies - FIFA, UEFA, the various International FA's to know for sure. There was a case down under in 2007 too  Maradonna's was coke if i'm not mistaken. Not performance enhancing. Pep Guardiola was done twice as a player. There is a big list somewhere i have seen. A lot of well known players (none from United). but the report would only say "banned substance". Not performance enhancing Nope, Maradona was sent home from the 94 WC cos he failed a drug test for ephedrine doping. The whole coke thing is another story and if messi played for United we'd be defending him vehemently to a man. it's hypocrisy No, if messi played for United the FA would have banned him for life. |
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Post by jimbonda on Jan 25, 2013 14:20:10 GMT
could be right.. I don't have either of those opinions Carbon, you've left me a bit baffled? me neither, i can write it out a thousand times but it never sinks in with him. i won't claim barca are angels, they are up to the old tricks the same as other teams. but they aren't the worst, not by a long way, so the excuse that this is why they are disliked doesn't hold much water. if they were also-rans no-one would care |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 14:21:14 GMT
I don't have either of those opinions Carbon, you've left me a bit baffled? I agree they do wrong and annoying things (hence the reference to the diving bunch of players) and I don't think the play the best football, they just win everything. I was under the impression I was elucidating the bigger picture I was refering to this comment; "Anyone who can't see the connection between the common hatred of Barca and the attitude of the average ABU will eventually get there." maybe i read that one wrong  |
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Post by jimbonda on Jan 25, 2013 14:23:14 GMT
I have no opinion on the other teams because honestly, who really cares what the lower teams are up to? the media doesnt, the spanish fa doesn't. ask an ABUist who denies he's abu cos united win stuff and he'll give you all of this - F.A. bend over for them, media loves them etc. |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Jan 25, 2013 14:24:13 GMT
Bringing this back to the original question for a sec, IE. Messi's use of HGH. Do i think it is OK that he used HGH as a youth? normally yes, but seeing as he is a sportsman, i do think it has given him an advantage in his sport. i would not ban him for it though. do i think he would be as great today without it? NO. IMO he is an anomaly. he is, IMHO, stronger than the average person of his build (hence why he can bounce off most of the tackles), and that is mainly because of his HGH use as a youth. It depends on how severe his condition was, and the dosages of treatment he was given. If it can be proven that his condition was not quite so severe, and the doctors were deliberately enhancing him and giving him more than sufficient dosages over a longer period of time to overcome his hardship / condition... then perhaps yes, I agree with you totally. To be honest, I think to get to the bottom of this would require quite a decent amount of research work. And I don't think any of us can be arsed. But simply put, my opinion is that the HGT used during his childhood / teens would not enhance his adult physique too much, if at all. It was just a push to get over the deficiency during this childhood. He's not running at phenomenal speeds, neither is he stronger than a 6ft person, neither does he shoot like a rocket. He just has better football skills. |
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Post by jimbonda on Jan 25, 2013 14:26:03 GMT
He's not running at phenomenal speeds, neither is he stronger than a 6ft person, neither does he shoot like a rocket. He just has better football skills. ^ right. |
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Post by SAF_Legend on Jan 25, 2013 14:30:07 GMT
He's not running at phenomenal speeds, neither is he stronger than a 6ft person, neither does he shoot like a rocket. He just has better football skills. ^ right. Sarcasm? Can't tell.  |
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Post by jimbonda on Jan 25, 2013 14:36:47 GMT
Sarcasm? Can't tell. no, i agree. growth hormone aint gonna improve his football skills. generally i think people getting on his back over it are taking a bit of a low road, but each to their own. |
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Post by Bestie on Jan 25, 2013 14:51:57 GMT
I was going to say something here about not telling me and everyone what my own thoughts are, but it isn't even worth it. don't 'even' go there, and don't be so precious old china. it's the way it is, a team wins everything - masses of people hate them. you can talk about the underhand stuff that goes on in the spanish league, but i don't see you whinging about anyone else, and there are worse teams than barca, who finished top of the fair play league i'll remind you. united fans should know better than anyone this principle, ABUism has been rampant in the majority of our lifetimes. if you hate every team in the spanish league and almost every player then you're entitled to that opinion carbon. if not, and it's just that you hate barcelona, who are nowhere near the worst team for it, then there's something else going on, and it's because they win everything and they're on a pedestal, and they knocked us out of two finals. no, that is untrue - to my eyes (which you lot seem to think is the obvious wrong opinion and everyone should submit to the same thoughts) Barcelona and the most visible club in the La Liga (followed by Real Madrid), I have no opinion on the other teams because honestly, who really cares what the lower teams are up to? the media doesnt, the spanish fa doesn't. What does annoy me the most about Barcelona is that people (I'm looking at Jim mostly on this one (followed by Jay for a comment a few posts ago)) absolutely REFUSE to acknowledge that Barcelona and indeed Messi do anything at all wrong and decide to overt attention from it by saying "well they play the best football, that's why you hate them". People saying that people like me "will eventually get there" or "is a Messi hater" also need to open there eyes and see the bigger picture. Swings and roundabouts my friends, swings and roundabouts. What Carbon said. It's also fairly well-documented that I dislike the whole of La Liga. I think it's a second-rate league paraded as the best because it looks pretty without having any actual substance. The only reasons I dislike Madrid the least are because: a) They're the only team who can challenge Barca; b) Ronaldo plays for them (and Ramos and Pepe - hatchetmen but unsportingly hilarious as long as it isn't against us); c) Their history (e. g. di Stefano is the Lawman's favourite player ever which is good enough for me, Puskas was a phenom, 9 European Cups, Zidane and the general 'romance' about them even if they have been a disgusting, money-splurging parasite in most of my life-time.) Sarcasm? Can't tell. no, i agree. growth hormone aint gonna improve his football skills. generally i think people getting on his back over it are taking a bit of a low road, but each to their own. And now Carbon and I and anyone else who questions the use of a usually illegal growth hormone in sports is low. Or petty, or bitter, or whatever other subtext you had in that. Back on topic: |
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