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Post by kstandhand on Jul 14, 2020 13:14:45 GMT
The players aren't good enough. The manager isn't good enough. Both can be true at once, and both have been for most of the past decade. I understand why people are reticent to blame Ole for not using his subs well when half his bench is dross. I've said already I think he should have brought on McTominay and Fred at HT, but I understand where that defence is coming from. But the best managers get more out of average players. Look at Hasenhuttl - Southampton have maybe two or three players that we'd take for our squad, and yet they played with purpose for the whole game despite having nothing to play for other than pride. Not saying he's the man for us, but he has given a very average group of players a solid gameplan that leads to them punching above their weight. Remember, when he was appointed in December 2018 they were 18th and looked utter dogshit. The past few weeks we've looked like we have a plan outside of countering for the first time in Ole's reign, but as soon as that plan faced a decent press - something half the teams in the league can do - it stumbled. That suggests it wasn't much of a plan beyond just letting good players play - something that can be useful to squash shit teams, but not a long-term plan for a team of our stature. Ole may not have all the pieces required, but has he really shown the ability to get something more out of what he has? To forge a system that is something more than its whole? He's done it in some individual games vs. big teams, huge credit to him for that (and he doesn't get enough for it), but we need a consistent, strong system that can work against any team and doesn't fall apart as soon as a team tries to counteract it instead of either playing into our gameplan or being too shit to stop us. That twat Klopp turned Jordan fucking Henderson into the second favourite for the PFA Player of the Year award. Now he obviously doesn't deserve that status, but if Klopp can take that level of mediocrity and turn it into a fairly important cog in a CL and PL winning team, that's the level we need. All this said - the season is far from over. We have more to play for than any other team. Fifth and no cups is a mile away from third and two major trophies - both feel distinctly possible right now. That ^
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Post by Karma on Jul 14, 2020 13:19:24 GMT
The players aren't good enough. The manager isn't good enough. Both can be true at once, and both have been for most of the past decade. I understand why people are reticent to blame Ole for not using his subs well when half his bench is dross. I've said already I think he should have brought on McTominay and Fred at HT, but I understand where that defence is coming from. But the best managers get more out of average players. Look at Hasenhuttl - Southampton have maybe two or three players that we'd take for our squad, and yet they played with purpose for the whole game despite having nothing to play for other than pride. Not saying he's the man for us, but he has given a very average group of players a solid gameplan that leads to them punching above their weight. Remember, when he was appointed in December 2018 they were 18th and looked utter dogshit. The past few weeks we've looked like we have a plan outside of countering for the first time in Ole's reign, but as soon as that plan faced a decent press - something half the teams in the league can do - it stumbled. That suggests it wasn't much of a plan beyond just letting good players play - something that can be useful to squash shit teams, but not a long-term plan for a team of our stature. Ole may not have all the pieces required, but has he really shown the ability to get something more out of what he has? To forge a system that is something more than its whole? He's done it in some individual games vs. big teams, huge credit to him for that (and he doesn't get enough for it), but we need a consistent, strong system that can work against any team and doesn't fall apart as soon as a team tries to counteract it instead of either playing into our gameplan or being too shit to stop us. That twat Klopp turned Jordan fucking Henderson into the second favourite for the PFA Player of the Year award. Now he obviously doesn't deserve that status, but if Klopp can take that level of mediocrity and turn it into a fairly important cog in a CL and PL winning team, that's the level we need. All this said - the season is far from over. We have more to play for than any other team. Fifth and no cups is a mile away from third and two major trophies - both feel distinctly possible right now. What I do hold the Glazers completely responsible for is the depth of the squad. We’ve been hanging on to dross and giving them new contracts because it’s cheaper . Outside of our best starting 11 there are no game changers on that bench. Our fans have been far too tolerant of mediocrity. It started under Fergie. Buying up cheap players in the hope of them coming good. Once the good players retired/got injured the squad suffered. Then we decided to give Moyes the job of sorting it out.🤮🤮 All under the same ownership.
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Post by Carbon on Jul 14, 2020 13:38:34 GMT
For me he has to win a trophy. Even Van Gaal managed that despite finishing 5th on goal difference.Who was very unlucky when you think about it. We’ve beaten both Chelsea and City convincingly this season already , we can do it again. If we blow a trophy now it would be a very Spursy thing to do imo. I know cups are a lottery but they also provide a good platform for the future. I agree with much of what you say Raz but there’s so much there for me to know what to pick out. 🤣🤣
Van Gaal's trophies.
Ajax[114][115]
Eredivisie: 1993–94, 1994–95, 1995–96 KNVB Cup: 1992–93 Johan Cruyff Shield: 1993, 1994, 1995 UEFA Champions League: 1994–95 UEFA Cup: 1991–92 UEFA Super Cup: 1995 Intercontinental Cup: 1995
Barcelona[115]
La Liga: 1997–98, 1998–99 Copa del Rey: 1997–98 UEFA Super Cup: 1997
AZ[115]
Eredivisie: 2008–09
Bayern Munich[115]
Bundesliga: 2009–10 DFB-Pokal: 2009–10 DFL-Supercup: 2010
Manchester United[115]
FA Cup: 2015–16
Ole's trophies
Manchester United Reserves
Lancashire Senior Cup: 2007–08[131] Manchester Senior Cup: 2008–09[132] Premier Reserve League North: 2009–10[226] Premier Reserve League: 2009–10[226]
Molde
Tippeligaen: 2011,[137] 2012[140] Norwegian Football Cup: 2013[227]
that part of your quote I highlighted makes it sound like you think Van Gaal was a nothing manager.
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Post by Bestie on Jul 14, 2020 14:15:03 GMT
For me he has to win a trophy. Even Van Gaal managed that despite finishing 5th on goal difference.Who was very unlucky when you think about it. We’ve beaten both Chelsea and City convincingly this season already , we can do it again. If we blow a trophy now it would be a very Spursy thing to do imo. I know cups are a lottery but they also provide a good platform for the future. I agree with much of what you say Raz but there’s so much there for me to know what to pick out. 🤣🤣 Van Gaal's trophies.
Ajax[114][115]
Eredivisie: 1993–94, 1994–95, 1995–96 KNVB Cup: 1992–93 Johan Cruyff Shield: 1993, 1994, 1995 UEFA Champions League: 1994–95 UEFA Cup: 1991–92 UEFA Super Cup: 1995 Intercontinental Cup: 1995
Barcelona[115]
La Liga: 1997–98, 1998–99 Copa del Rey: 1997–98 UEFA Super Cup: 1997
AZ[115]
Eredivisie: 2008–09
Bayern Munich[115]
Bundesliga: 2009–10 DFB-Pokal: 2009–10 DFL-Supercup: 2010
Manchester United[115]
FA Cup: 2015–16 Ole's trophies Manchester United Reserves
Lancashire Senior Cup: 2007–08[131] Manchester Senior Cup: 2008–09[132] Premier Reserve League North: 2009–10[226] Premier Reserve League: 2009–10[226]
Molde
Tippeligaen: 2011,[137] 2012[140] Norwegian Football Cup: 2013[227] that part of your quote I highlighted makes it sound like you think Van Gaal was a nothing manager.
I took it as karma saying even when van Gaal finished outside of the European Cup places he won a trophy.
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Post by Carbon on Jul 14, 2020 14:31:39 GMT
Van Gaal's trophies.
Ajax[114][115]
Eredivisie: 1993–94, 1994–95, 1995–96 KNVB Cup: 1992–93 Johan Cruyff Shield: 1993, 1994, 1995 UEFA Champions League: 1994–95 UEFA Cup: 1991–92 UEFA Super Cup: 1995 Intercontinental Cup: 1995
Barcelona[115]
La Liga: 1997–98, 1998–99 Copa del Rey: 1997–98 UEFA Super Cup: 1997
AZ[115]
Eredivisie: 2008–09
Bayern Munich[115]
Bundesliga: 2009–10 DFB-Pokal: 2009–10 DFL-Supercup: 2010
Manchester United[115]
FA Cup: 2015–16 Ole's trophies Manchester United Reserves
Lancashire Senior Cup: 2007–08[131] Manchester Senior Cup: 2008–09[132] Premier Reserve League North: 2009–10[226] Premier Reserve League: 2009–10[226]
Molde
Tippeligaen: 2011,[137] 2012[140] Norwegian Football Cup: 2013[227] that part of your quote I highlighted makes it sound like you think Van Gaal was a nothing manager.
I took it as karma saying even when van Gaal finished outside of the European Cup places he won a trophy.
I would read it as 'Van Gaal even' for as you mention.
The English language is great
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Post by kstandhand on Jul 14, 2020 14:35:37 GMT
I took it as karma saying even when van Gaal finished outside of the European Cup places he won a trophy. I would read it as 'Van Gaal even' for as you mention.
The English language is great
Either way,despite his limited success with us,we are not comparing eggs with eggs,one of the of the games best managers of all time & a novice.
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Post by Carbon on Jul 14, 2020 14:45:27 GMT
I would read it as 'Van Gaal even' for as you mention.
The English language is great
Either way,despite his limited success with us,we are not comparing eggs with eggs,one of the of the games best managers of all time & a novice.
ok, which is what i was saying but yeah
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Post by Karma on Jul 14, 2020 14:51:05 GMT
As bad as that second under Van Gaal season was, and it was , he won our first silverware since Fergie against Palace. We lost 4th on goal difference. Funnily enough it was West Ham that decided his job in the end. They could also decide our top 4 prospects along with Crystal Palace. If we let them.
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Post by SoccerFan1 on Jul 14, 2020 15:01:45 GMT
The players aren't good enough. The manager isn't good enough. Both can be true at once, and both have been for most of the past decade. I understand why people are reticent to blame Ole for not using his subs well when half his bench is dross. I've said already I think he should have brought on McTominay and Fred at HT, but I understand where that defence is coming from. But the best managers get more out of average players. Look at Hasenhuttl - Southampton have maybe two or three players that we'd take for our squad, and yet they played with purpose for the whole game despite having nothing to play for other than pride. Not saying he's the man for us, but he has given a very average group of players a solid gameplan that leads to them punching above their weight. Remember, when he was appointed in December 2018 they were 18th and looked utter dogshit. The past few weeks we've looked like we have a plan outside of countering for the first time in Ole's reign, but as soon as that plan faced a decent press - something half the teams in the league can do - it stumbled. That suggests it wasn't much of a plan beyond just letting good players play - something that can be useful to squash shit teams, but not a long-term plan for a team of our stature. Ole may not have all the pieces required, but has he really shown the ability to get something more out of what he has? To forge a system that is something more than its whole? He's done it in some individual games vs. big teams, huge credit to him for that (and he doesn't get enough for it), but we need a consistent, strong system that can work against any team and doesn't fall apart as soon as a team tries to counteract it instead of either playing into our gameplan or being too shit to stop us. That twat Klopp turned Jordan fucking Henderson into the second favourite for the PFA Player of the Year award. Now he obviously doesn't deserve that status, but if Klopp can take that level of mediocrity and turn it into a fairly important cog in a CL and PL winning team, that's the level we need. All this said - the season is far from over. We have more to play for than any other team. Fifth and no cups is a mile away from third and two major trophies - both feel distinctly possible right now. Good god man. Did people really think we were running the table and getting max pts from restart to season's end??
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 15:14:51 GMT
Sorry but none of this was on Ole. Besides the Obafemi goal every goal we've conceded has been due to our own mistakes. Most of it being basic defending. These are professional footballers ffs. We've got squad depth but its clear we lack that quality in that depth. These players looked like they were running on half a tank of gas for most of the game last night nothing seemed to fit properly. Not taking anything away from Southampton either, they more than deserved the point. We've been lucky with injuries so far since this lockdown so I can see why Ole made the changes when he did. In hindsight they could have been different but we still had the quality to see the game out. Again piss poor defending cost us the 3 points. Also more pissed that Romeu got away with any punishment even with VAR being used to check it. Fucking useless bastards.
Did someone else type up that post? its very rational for you Cheeky bastard Just looking at things from a different perspective. Also the fact weve been repeating the same shit for 7 years is getting old. So thought I'd try a different approach. I was also sober so thst may have played a part in it
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Post by kstandhand on Jul 14, 2020 15:24:49 GMT
Either way,despite his limited success with us,we are not comparing eggs with eggs,one of the of the games best managers of all time & a novice. ok, which is what i was saying but yeah
I know & i agree with the point you were making.
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Post by Carbon on Jul 14, 2020 15:31:17 GMT
ok, which is what i was saying but yeah
I know & i agree with the point you were making.
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Post by Bestie on Jul 14, 2020 15:38:28 GMT
ok, which is what i was saying but yeah
I know & i agree with the point you were making. This is what happens when United do shitty United things again. People argue with each other even when they agree ...
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Post by Bestie on Jul 14, 2020 15:38:58 GMT
The players aren't good enough. The manager isn't good enough. Both can be true at once, and both have been for most of the past decade. I understand why people are reticent to blame Ole for not using his subs well when half his bench is dross. I've said already I think he should have brought on McTominay and Fred at HT, but I understand where that defence is coming from. But the best managers get more out of average players. Look at Hasenhuttl - Southampton have maybe two or three players that we'd take for our squad, and yet they played with purpose for the whole game despite having nothing to play for other than pride. Not saying he's the man for us, but he has given a very average group of players a solid gameplan that leads to them punching above their weight. Remember, when he was appointed in December 2018 they were 18th and looked utter dogshit. The past few weeks we've looked like we have a plan outside of countering for the first time in Ole's reign, but as soon as that plan faced a decent press - something half the teams in the league can do - it stumbled. That suggests it wasn't much of a plan beyond just letting good players play - something that can be useful to squash shit teams, but not a long-term plan for a team of our stature. Ole may not have all the pieces required, but has he really shown the ability to get something more out of what he has? To forge a system that is something more than its whole? He's done it in some individual games vs. big teams, huge credit to him for that (and he doesn't get enough for it), but we need a consistent, strong system that can work against any team and doesn't fall apart as soon as a team tries to counteract it instead of either playing into our gameplan or being too shit to stop us. That twat Klopp turned Jordan fucking Henderson into the second favourite for the PFA Player of the Year award. Now he obviously doesn't deserve that status, but if Klopp can take that level of mediocrity and turn it into a fairly important cog in a CL and PL winning team, that's the level we need. All this said - the season is far from over. We have more to play for than any other team. Fifth and no cups is a mile away from third and two major trophies - both feel distinctly possible right now. Good god man. Did people really think we were running the table and getting max pts from restart to season's end?? Why not? Proper big clubs go out expecting to win every game.
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Jul 14, 2020 16:20:21 GMT
Did someone else type up that post? its very rational for you Cheeky bastard Just looking at things from a different perspective. Also the fact weve been repeating the same shit for 7 years is getting old. So thought I'd try a different approach. I was also sober so thst may have played a part in it There really is a first time for everything!
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