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Post by Stew on Apr 5, 2021 10:25:07 GMT
Watched the highlights again this morning. Delighted for Mason, who has been playing out of his skin recently without much luck. It’d be important for him to at least hit double figures in his difficult second season. Or even better, if he could be the forward to catch fire now, we’d be in a great position to win the Europa.
How on earth he can keep picking that prick Lindelof is beyond me. I think we’ve become so used to mediocrity at CB that his dreadful error for their goal is largely glossed over everywhere else but on here. Never mind Vidic or Stam, if a Berg or an O’Shea had missed a header like that they would have been in the stocks. Shocking slipping of standards.
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Apr 5, 2021 10:32:06 GMT
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Post by viking22 on Apr 5, 2021 10:46:34 GMT
For me points total is a better guide to progress in the league than league position.
2019/20: 66 points (3rd place) 2018/9: 66 points (6th place) 2017/8: 81 points (2nd place) 2016/7: 69 points (6th place) 2015/6: 66 points (5th place) 2014/5: 70 points (4th place) 2013/4: 64 points (7th place)
Top 4 has become a lot less competitive because Chelsea and Tottenham are a lot weaker and of course this season Liverpool have had a nightmare. Looking at the history of the last several seasons the 66 points we managed last season wouldn't have usually been enough to finish in the top 4. And our average over the last several seasons has been in the high 60s. So to say there are been definite progress I'd expect a points total in at least the mid 70s which will require a strong finish to the season.
Mourinho's first two full seasons were way more impressive. Higher points total in his first full season and two major trophies. And I cannot see us getting close to the 81 points he managed in his second full season. And all of this was achieved without Bruno who has been worth at least an extra 10-15 points a season.
So while on the surface two consecutive top 4 finishes may look impressive it shouldn't fool us into thinking that Ole is doing a great job or that major additions to our squad aren't required even though the Glazers and Woodward will try and spin it that way.
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Post by redcase on Apr 5, 2021 10:52:32 GMT
For me points total is a better guide to progress in the league than league position. 2019/20: 66 points (3rd place) 2018/9: 66 points (6th place) 2017/8: 81 points (2nd place) 2016/7: 69 points (6th place) 2015/6: 66 points (5th place) 2014/5: 70 points (4th place) 2013/4: 64 points (7th place) Top 4 has become a lot less competitive because Chelsea and Tottenham are a lot weaker and of course this season Liverpool have had a nightmare. Looking at the history of the last several seasons the 66 points we managed last season wouldn't have usually been enough to finish in the top 4. And our average over the last several seasons has been in the high 60s. So to say there are been definite progress I'd expect a points total in at least the mid 70s which will require a strong finish to the season. Mourinho's first two full seasons were way more impressive. Higher points total in his first full season and two major trophies. And I cannot see us getting close to the 81 points he managed in his second full season. And all of this was achieved without Bruno who has been worth at least an extra 10-15 points a season. So while on the surface two consecutive top 4 finishes may look impressive it shouldn't fool us into thinking that Ole is doing a great job or that major additions to our squad aren't required even though the Glazers and Woodward will try and spin it that way. How fitting that the manager most hated by United fans took us to our highest ever points total post-Fergie. |
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Post by Rustin Cohle on Apr 5, 2021 10:55:21 GMT
For me points total is a better guide to progress in the league than league position. 2019/20: 66 points (3rd place) 2018/9: 66 points (6th place) 2017/8: 81 points (2nd place) 2016/7: 69 points (6th place) 2015/6: 66 points (5th place) 2014/5: 70 points (4th place) 2013/4: 64 points (7th place) Top 4 has become a lot less competitive because Chelsea and Tottenham are a lot weaker and of course this season Liverpool have had a nightmare. Looking at the history of the last several seasons the 66 points we managed last season wouldn't have usually been enough to finish in the top 4. And our average over the last several seasons has been in the high 60s. So to say there are been definite progress I'd expect a points total in at least the mid 70s which will require a strong finish to the season. Mourinho's first two full seasons were way more impressive. Higher points total in his first full season and two major trophies. And I cannot see us getting close to the 81 points he managed in his second full season. And all of this was achieved without Bruno who has been worth at least an extra 10-15 points a season. So while on the surface two consecutive top 4 finishes may look impressive it shouldn't fool us into thinking that Ole is doing a great job or that major additions to our squad aren't required even though the Glazers and Woodward will try and spin it that way. I think it's also worth just reminding ourselves how low quality this season is. A truncated schedule and no pre-season has meant that probably every single team is worse than last year, and we've just dropped off less than some of the others. In reality, the only difference between us finishing third last year and (possibly) finishing second this year is Liverpool collapsing. City are one spot and many points above us, same as last year, it's just Liverpool aren't above them this time. |
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Post by Bestie on Apr 5, 2021 10:56:32 GMT
For me points total is a better guide to progress in the league than league position. 2019/20: 66 points (3rd place) 2018/9: 66 points (6th place) 2017/8: 81 points (2nd place) 2016/7: 69 points (6th place) 2015/6: 66 points (5th place) 2014/5: 70 points (4th place) 2013/4: 64 points (7th place) Top 4 has become a lot less competitive because Chelsea and Tottenham are a lot weaker and of course this season Liverpool have had a nightmare. Looking at the history of the last several seasons the 66 points we managed last season wouldn't have usually been enough to finish in the top 4. And our average over the last several seasons has been in the high 60s. So to say there are been definite progress I'd expect a points total in at least the mid 70s which will require a strong finish to the season. Mourinho's first two full seasons were way more impressive. Higher points total in his first full season and two major trophies. And I cannot see us getting close to the 81 points he managed in his second full season. And all of this was achieved without Bruno who has been worth at least an extra 10-15 points a season. So while on the surface two consecutive top 4 finishes may look impressive it shouldn't fool us into thinking that Ole is doing a great job or that major additions to our squad aren't required even though the Glazers and Woodward will try and spin it that way. Pretty much exactly this. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 11:05:10 GMT
I suppose you're in the "Ole out" camp because that is Ole's plan and he happened to share it with you I didn't say that anyway. But hey, let's sack Ole, bring in an elite manager, not back him in the transfer market and then sack him in 3 seasons for not winning the league. Because this proved to be a success with the previous two
He shared it with the whole world a couple days ago in a press conference  Edit: slight exaggeration on my part, but you get the idea. Didn't hear or read about it, to be honest. I don't believe a word that is being said in those. Not new players who have always dreamt about playing for United, not managers who are happy with a player or the squad or the rest of the drivel which litters the media because of contract obligations.
The club is fucked financially under this ownership. Ole, the manager before him and probably the one after would love the club to use its true financial muscle in the transfer market. The fact that it is being strangled right now is not on any of them. The manager just has to get on with things under the circumstances. My opinion is that Ole has been doing this better than any other since Fergie.
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Post by Stew on Apr 5, 2021 11:41:24 GMT
Ofcourse not blaming Ole for that, iam one of the few 'Ole still in' people left here ! Just highlighted the monumental fuck ups of ed and previous managers. But there are some things he does i really dont get , like starting Lindelof every game when we know clearly he can be bullied and out muscled by any premiere league forward , while there arent too many other options on bench , Axel deserves a better run there imo. Also this squad is not good enough , and until that is fixed to a reasonable level there is no use calling for Ole out after every game Absolutely. No manager in world football would have taken this United this season higher than second. As for the CB pairing, I'd love Axel to claim a spot in the first XI but whether we are in the "Ole in" or "Ole out" camp we don't see the players in training. Considering the gamble on Hendeson when we have DDG on our books as the latest example, I don't think Ole is too shy about bedding in our young players when they appear to be ready.
This is a stretch. However, for argument sake, let’s say you’re correct. Lets say the ridiculous spending power City have, coupled with a manager who has made a career out of hoovering up trophies, means that this season, no manager could take this Utd higher than second. Is that really more than winning the taller than Danny De Vito contest though? To me the real question to ask is- could any manager in the world have this Utd side genuinely challenging City? To really push them, particularly given how the table looked in January? Not beating them but making them sweat, making them nervous, looking over their shoulders, having to win it in the final game or two, like Klopp has done on a number of occasions? And if your answer to that is still no, then I’m not sure what to say really. |
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Post by johnboy14 on Apr 5, 2021 11:41:47 GMT
He shared it with the whole world a couple days ago in a press conference Edit: slight exaggeration on my part, but you get the idea. Didn't hear or read about it, to be honest. I don't believe a word that is being said in those. Not new players who have always dreamt about playing for United, not managers who are happy with a player or the squad or the rest of the drivel which litters the media because of contract obligations. The club is fucked financially under this ownership. Ole, the manager before him and probably the one after would love the club to use its true financial muscle in the transfer market. The fact that it is being strangled right now is not on any of them. The manager just has to get on with things under the circumstances. My opinion is that Ole has been doing this better than any other since Fergie.
The others werent prepared to put up with it though. They knew they could not afford to fail. Despite Jose and LVGs questionable time at the club, they still won trophies. Ole on the other hand is treated in an entirely different manner by the club and his friends in the media. Criticism is rare in the main media groups. You can only judge Ole or any coach on the players he has and what he gets out of them, but you will never convince me, that a semi competent coach couldnt avoid getting outplayed tactically by Brighton for nearly an hour with this squad. If we are cash strapped then we need a better coach to squeeze every ounce out of what we have. Rashford being a perfect example, its very obvious where his strengths and weaknesses are, yet we never see those issues being addressed. All the talk of Haaland is fucking hillarious and Im pretty sure we will go into another campaign with Ole, this squad and the same old rubbish. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 12:14:04 GMT
Absolutely. No manager in world football would have taken this United this season higher than second. As for the CB pairing, I'd love Axel to claim a spot in the first XI but whether we are in the "Ole in" or "Ole out" camp we don't see the players in training. Considering the gamble on Hendeson when we have DDG on our books as the latest example, I don't think Ole is too shy about bedding in our young players when they appear to be ready.
This is a stretch. However, for argument sake, let’s say you’re correct. Lets say the ridiculous spending power City have, coupled with a manager who has made a career out of hoovering up trophies, means that this season, no manager could take this Utd higher than second. Is that really more than winning the taller than Danny De Vito contest though? To me the real question to ask is- could any manager in the world have this Utd side genuinely challenging City? To really push them, particularly given how the table looked in January? Not beating them but making them sweat, making them nervous, looking over their shoulders, having to win it in the final game or two, like Klopp has done on a number of occasions? And if your answer to that is still no, then I’m not sure what to say really. Patronising as ever.
What the table looked like in January is a credit to Ole and not a stick to beat him with. The sad reality is that with 15-16 players to choose from we can push City for half a season, which is what we did. Our thin squad is fucked. Perhaps we could have lasted a bit longer with a proper pre-season, but we had about three weeks of preparation. All the other contenders are being excused here for injuries and change of managers, and for some reason there appears to be a consensus here that Ole had an ideal scenario to actually win the league this season.
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Post by Tatty on Apr 5, 2021 12:22:45 GMT
I guess my post opens a can of worms haha! 👀
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Post by redcase on Apr 5, 2021 12:24:29 GMT
This is a stretch. However, for argument sake, let’s say you’re correct. Lets say the ridiculous spending power City have, coupled with a manager who has made a career out of hoovering up trophies, means that this season, no manager could take this Utd higher than second. Is that really more than winning the taller than Danny De Vito contest though? To me the real question to ask is- could any manager in the world have this Utd side genuinely challenging City? To really push them, particularly given how the table looked in January? Not beating them but making them sweat, making them nervous, looking over their shoulders, having to win it in the final game or two, like Klopp has done on a number of occasions? And if your answer to that is still no, then I’m not sure what to say really. Patronising as ever. What the table looked like in January is a credit to Ole and not a stick to beat him with. The sad reality is that with 15-16 players to choose from we can push City for half a season, which is what we did. Our thin squad is fucked. Perhaps we could have lasted a bit longer with a proper pre-season, but we had about three weeks of preparation. All the other contenders are being excused here for injuries and change of managers, and for some reason there appears to be a consensus here that Ole had an ideal scenario to actually win the league this season.
I do not accept the argument that he has few players to choose from. He's marginalized a gem of a signing. He does not rotate defenders. He's been unable to accommodate our keepers properly. He favors certain players even if they are shit. You cannot continue to ignore these arguments against him. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 12:29:35 GMT
Didn't hear or read about it, to be honest. I don't believe a word that is being said in those. Not new players who have always dreamt about playing for United, not managers who are happy with a player or the squad or the rest of the drivel which litters the media because of contract obligations. The club is fucked financially under this ownership. Ole, the manager before him and probably the one after would love the club to use its true financial muscle in the transfer market. The fact that it is being strangled right now is not on any of them. The manager just has to get on with things under the circumstances. My opinion is that Ole has been doing this better than any other since Fergie.
The others werent prepared to put up with it though. They knew they could not afford to fail. Despite Jose and LVGs questionable time at the club, they still won trophies. Ole on the other hand is treated in an entirely different manner by the club and his friends in the media. Criticism is rare in the main media groups. You can only judge Ole or any coach on the players he has and what he gets out of them, but you will never convince me, that a semi competent coach couldnt avoid getting outplayed tactically by Brighton for nearly an hour with this squad. If we are cash strapped then we need a better coach to squeeze every ounce out of what we have. Rashford being a perfect example, its very obvious where his strengths and weaknesses are, yet we never see those issues being addressed. All the talk of Haaland is fucking hillarious and Im pretty sure we will go into another campaign with Ole, this squad and the same old rubbish. These are Rashford's stats:
Season Apps Goals
2015–16 18 8
2016–17 53 11
2017–18 52 13
2018–19 47 13
2019–20 44 22
2020–21 46 19
I think they are indeed a perfect example to Ole's work. I'm sure Luke Shaw's and Fred's also tell a story. And McT's. Fair play to Jose for sticking a finger in the Glazers' eyes, but that's not what I want our manager to do. They are his employers, and there was no surprise about their conduct (or his). When a manager is appointed he is supposed to do the best with what he has instead of using it as an alibi for failure. Don't get me wrong, it was great seeing that City reject miss an open goal right at the death to see us through to Stockholm, but for me consistently improving on league campaigns while integrating young academy players and the odd shrewd signing is far more exciting than paying 100's of millions for beating Rostov, Zoriya and Celta Vigo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 12:39:50 GMT
Patronising as ever. What the table looked like in January is a credit to Ole and not a stick to beat him with. The sad reality is that with 15-16 players to choose from we can push City for half a season, which is what we did. Our thin squad is fucked. Perhaps we could have lasted a bit longer with a proper pre-season, but we had about three weeks of preparation. All the other contenders are being excused here for injuries and change of managers, and for some reason there appears to be a consensus here that Ole had an ideal scenario to actually win the league this season.
I do not accept the argument that he has few players to choose from. He's marginalized a gem of a signing. He does not rotate defenders. He's been unable to accommodate our keepers properly. He favors certain players even if they are shit. You cannot continue to ignore these arguments against him. He also marginalized Telles. A no-brainer of a signing according to many of us on here who turned out to be a bit shit, a.k.a. the most expensive kick in the arse in the history of the club. Ole sees the players on the training ground to know better than any of us why Tuanzebe doesn't get more games, or why VDB doesn't get a sniff. In fact, it's for all of us to see about the latter who has failed to make any impact when he did get a chance.
Perma-crocked Bailly and Tuanzebe, underwhelming Telles, a slow start for VDB, Cavani is injured/unsettled and a has-been in Matic leave very little to work with. Add the fact that Rashford and Lindelof play while carrying injuries and Pogba doesn't want to be here and Ole's cards are far from ideal. Yet somehow we are expected to push City for title, ignoring the fact they have two-50m players for every position
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Post by Karma on Apr 5, 2021 12:46:14 GMT
The difference is we have players that can change a game. It certainly isn’t the coaching. We’ve had too many poor performances like that for it to be brushed off any more. |
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