West Ham v United (17/12/06, 4pm)

[Stew]

missunited said:

Beckham and Ronaldo aren't similar players though. Becks was a good player, and his free kicks deadly, but first he would never get half the chances he had if it wasn't for the partnership that him and Gary had together on the right, nor does he or ever did have the capabilities that Ronaldo did. We don't need the entire team to go back to defend every time, if we did than we would have a lot bigger problems than letting in one goal against West Ham away.

I don't want this to get into a Becks vs Ronnie debate. The point I was making was that in the nineties when we were absolutely dominant and extremely attack-minded, we had 2 wide players in Beckham and Giggs that went up and down the touchlines attacking and defending when the time called for it. It didn't affect their contribution to the attack at all nor did it make us a defensive team. I think your description of Beckham is a bit harsh too.

[missunited]

stewart1971 said:

missunited said:

Beckham and Ronaldo aren't similar players though. Becks was a good player, and his free kicks deadly, but first he would never get half the chances he had if it wasn't for the partnership that him and Gary had together on the right, nor does he or ever did have the capabilities that Ronaldo did. We don't need the entire team to go back to defend every time, if we did than we would have a lot bigger problems than letting in one goal against West Ham away.

I don't want this to get into a Becks vs Ronnie debate. The point I was making was that in the nineties when we were absolutely dominant and extremely attack-minded, we had 2 wide players in Beckham and Giggs that went up and down the touchlines attacking and defending when the time called for it. It didn't affect their contribution to the attack at all nor did it make us a defensive team.

And the point I have been trying to make is not that no one should go back in defence, but that Ronaldo can't be blamed for our failure yesterday, and that people are putting blame on players who didn't deserve it (such as Ronaldo not being defensive enough yesterday when he was the only player at times trying to get us a goal, or Heinze who had a generally good match)

It's not a bad thing that players go back to defend, but I think it's unfair that people expect every player to run back and defend every attack against us, especially when that player was probably our best player in that match.

The football we played in the nineties worked, and it worked brilliantly, but we are a different team now, and yesterday we looked like a team that didn't know what they wanted to be.

[SuperVidic]

missunited said:

supervidic said:

tom said:

I understand that but sometimes he doesn't bother helping Nev defend, NB vs Chelsea, and Carrick/Scholes have to help Nev which then leaves us weak in the midfield, but Giggs on the other hand backtracks more and helps LB or switches places with the midfielders if they go to help LB something Ronaldo isn't too keen on doing. I just pointed this out because people were complaining over Heinze not giving 100% and questioning his loyalty, and I think its wrong to be complaing over Heinze yet say nothing about Ronaldo.

Ronaldo isn't a defensively minded player though. Giggs is much older, he's been at united for longer and maybe he feels that it's part of his responsibilities to help out at the back. Ronaldo was one of the few players yesterday who put up a fight and wanted to win, and althought I agree that Heinze should not get blamed for the bad result yesterday, that does not mean the blame should be shifted to a forward going player who not only isn't but SHOULD NOT be defensive. If all our strikers and midfielders were to be defensive we would never score and it'd tire them out. Players have spesific roles to play, if they don't stick to those roles it'll be like a bunch of kids playing in the park on a sunday running all over the place.

Too harsh?

I'm not blaming yesterdays result on Ronaldo, and I didn't even mention that game, I'm just saying in general he could give more effort when it comes to defending, by defending I'm talking about going more to the midfield, not just jog around on the right flank and gel up, and that way if Nev needs help its not Scholes or Carrick that has to drag from the midfield and leave the other to be run over. I'm not saying he should be hugging the corner flag but just be ready at the midfield line. For me its the R/L midfielders responsibility to help the R/L defenders if they need it.

[Stew]

missunited said:

stewart1971 said:

It's not a bad thing that players go back to defend, but I think it's unfair that people expect every player to run back and defend every attack against us, especially when that player was probably our best player in that match.

That is a fair point. Ronaldo was our best player yesterday.

[Tatty]

Why should Ronaldo defend when he's of far more use just inside our to start a counter attack?

[hyderedphil]

Off day all round, thats the worse Utd away support i have seen at an away game for years. Never seen so many tossers in our end.