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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 7:33:58 GMT
It's hardly lunacy saying Tom Cleverley isn't good enough to start for United in fairness. If you have a good reason to back it up then fine but he's clearly being used as a scapegoat. How in fucking Zeus can you possibly single out Clevs against the scousers when the whole team was shit, nobody passed the ball backwards or lost it more than Giggs, but are people getting on his back? Others are saying he's not good enough because he doesnt score enough. So yes it's complete lunacy. He's been quoted as the next Scholes people say, Perhaps its the fact he's only 24 or that this is his 2nd season in the 1st team, give the lad a break, albeit suffering from injuries last season and being left out of the side I think he's done a good job. Funny how Clevs, DDG, Rafael and Valencia have all seemed to have had way more shit than the players that have had ample time to prove their worth. Fair play Paul for defending our players. This is admirable. However I don't think clevers is good enough for us. Would Cleverly get into the Chelsea, Arsenal,City,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, PSG teams? I don't think so. When we think of DDG, RVP, Vidic, Shinji we think of players that could play in almost any team in the world. I don't hold cleverly in this esteem and doubt I ever will. This is not saying he is a bad player but I think we need better alongside carrick and in Fellaini I think we have got that. Football is all about opinions and I know some wont agree with me. |
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Post by sharsh_U4L on Sept 7, 2013 7:52:33 GMT
If you have a good reason to back it up then fine but he's clearly being used as a scapegoat. How in fucking Zeus can you possibly single out Clevs against the scousers when the whole team was shit, nobody passed the ball backwards or lost it more than Giggs, but are people getting on his back? Others are saying he's not good enough because he doesnt score enough. So yes it's complete lunacy. He's been quoted as the next Scholes people say, Perhaps its the fact he's only 24 or that this is his 2nd season in the 1st team, give the lad a break, albeit suffering from injuries last season and being left out of the side I think he's done a good job. Funny how Clevs, DDG, Rafael and Valencia have all seemed to have had way more shit than the players that have had ample time to prove their worth. Fair play Paul for defending our players. This is admirable. However I don't think clevers is good enough for us. Would Cleverly get into the Chelsea, Arsenal,City,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, PSG teams? I don't think so. When we think of DDG, RVP, Vidic, Shinji we think of players that could play in almost any team in the world. I don't hold cleverly in this esteem and doubt I ever will. This is not saying he is a bad player but I think we need better alongside carrick and in Fellaini I think we have got that. Football is all about opinions and I know some wont agree with me. Agreed that Clevs is not that good enough for us at the moment. But we need such players in the Squad who are out and out Utd players. Clevs is a good squad player who would always keep challenging for the starting line up. Still remember the beautiful 1-2 with Carrick when he scored against Sunderland. Similar things were told about Wellbz, but it seems that he is starting to get his bearings right when played in the right position. By the way, he scored a brace (again) vs Moldova.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 10:51:31 GMT
If you have a good reason to back it up then fine but he's clearly being used as a scapegoat. How in fucking Zeus can you possibly single out Clevs against the scousers when the whole team was shit, nobody passed the ball backwards or lost it more than Giggs, but are people getting on his back? Others are saying he's not good enough because he doesnt score enough. So yes it's complete lunacy. He's been quoted as the next Scholes people say, Perhaps its the fact he's only 24 or that this is his 2nd season in the 1st team, give the lad a break, albeit suffering from injuries last season and being left out of the side I think he's done a good job. Funny how Clevs, DDG, Rafael and Valencia have all seemed to have had way more shit than the players that have had ample time to prove their worth. Fair play Paul for defending our players. This is admirable. However I don't think clevers is good enough for us. Would Cleverly get into the Chelsea, Arsenal,City,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, PSG teams? I don't think so. When we think of DDG, RVP, Vidic, Shinji we think of players that could play in almost any team in the world. I don't hold cleverly in this esteem and doubt I ever will. This is not saying he is a bad player but I think we need better alongside carrick and in Fellaini I think we have got that. Football is all about opinions and I know some wont agree with me. Thats fine mate and totally agree that every1 will have an opinion and theyre entitled to it, my point wasnt to say whether he's good enough or not ( I happen to think he is but thats me) my point was at least provide a good enough arguement to back it up instead of using games to try and prove it where he was by far not the worst player on the pitch yet not condemn them. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 11:51:27 GMT
Fair play Paul for defending our players. This is admirable. However I don't think clevers is good enough for us. Would Cleverly get into the Chelsea, Arsenal,City,Bayern,Madrid,Barca, PSG teams? I don't think so. When we think of DDG, RVP, Vidic, Shinji we think of players that could play in almost any team in the world. I don't hold cleverly in this esteem and doubt I ever will. This is not saying he is a bad player but I think we need better alongside carrick and in Fellaini I think we have got that. Football is all about opinions and I know some wont agree with me. Thats fine mate and totally agree that every1 will have an opinion and theyre entitled to it, my point wasnt to say whether he's good enough or not ( I happen to think he is but thats me) my point was at least provide a good enough arguement to back it up instead of using games to try and prove it where he was by far not the worst player on the pitch yet not condemn them. I agree with you on that. Cleverly wasn't the only one that was cack against the dippers. In fact I was discussing this game with my mates and we are convinced part of Cleverly's indecision may have been down to a slightly cautious approach from our midfield where himself and Carrick were told to sit too deep. |
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Post by _ on Sept 7, 2013 12:40:38 GMT
Agree with you Paul. Clevs was at least fighting out there and giving it some. I thought Young looked out of his depth as did others but Nani had a go when he came on. Clevs needs support being a bit of a lightweight but he is an excellent player. Keano was endorsing him last night and I think his opinion counts a lot.
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Post by redcase on Sept 7, 2013 14:17:19 GMT
There is a thread on Cleverley not being good enough while Ryan Giggs is still starting games for us.
*facepalm*
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 14:20:42 GMT
There is a thread on Cleverley not being good enough while Ryan Giggs is still starting games for us. *facepalm* My point exactly |
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Post by Bestie on Sept 7, 2013 14:27:04 GMT
As said before by myself and others, what Cleverley lacks isn't ability, it's initiative. He takes his cues from his midfield partners, rather than taking the initiative himself. I don't know if it's a tactical thing or an individual mentality but when Cleverley is paired with Carrick, he seems content to sit in the deeper position with him and just keep the ball moving. Makes himself available, passes the ball off, and holds.
With other partners, like Anderson or Kagawa, you see Cleverley being a lot more dynamic. He's always looking for the ball, getting into a square of space, but when he pops it off he's looking to get forwards and provide another option again.
He has the natural talent to pass-and-move quickly in his locker, we just need to see him use it more. Anytime you see him take the ball, it's always one, two touch-pass. Or touch-pass. If there is a chance to take it on a few yards, depending on who he's playing with he does it. Almost always in control of what he wants to do. That's a hallmark of good ability. We just need to see if we can get him adding 'the extra' on a consistent basis.
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Post by Stew on Sept 7, 2013 15:26:30 GMT
Midfielders are all about goals and assists and nothing else, obviously. Exactly. Look at Roy Keane. Fucking useless. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 16:50:03 GMT
As said before by myself and others, what Cleverley lacks isn't ability, it's initiative. He takes his cues from his midfield partners, rather than taking the initiative himself. I don't know if it's a tactical thing or an individual mentality but when Cleverley is paired with Carrick, he seems content to sit in the deeper position with him and just keep the ball moving. Makes himself available, passes the ball off, and holds. With other partners, like Anderson or Kagawa, you see Cleverley being a lot more dynamic. He's always looking for the ball, getting into a square of space, but when he pops it off he's looking to get forwards and provide another option again. He has the natural talent to pass-and-move quickly in his locker, we just need to see him use it more. Anytime you see him take the ball, it's always one, two touch-pass. Or touch-pass. If there is a chance to take it on a few yards, depending on who he's playing with he does it. Almost always in control of what he wants to do. That's a hallmark of good ability. We just need to see if we can get him adding 'the extra' on a consistent basis. Totally agree with that. He`s a wingman. An enabler. He is a team player and his positioning tactically is top notch, which shows, for a lad of his inexperience at the top level in-spite of this having won the title and finish runner up on goal difference in his two years in the first team, that he is a good reader of the game and plays it intelligently. I hope with the acquisition of Fellaini that we will switch to a 4231. This will bring the best out of Cleverley as he can link with both the other sitting midfielder and our number 10. Quick simple passing is what great Football dynasties are built on. With good movement and high work rate players like Cleverley are the glue of such teams. He could do with a purple patch to give him a bit more confidence that he may start to be more commanding in his game. I know that no one is advocating his sale but we could do with getting behind our players a bit more especially our own youth products that every one is so proud of in hindsight, ie the Golden generation. Cleverley and Welbeck are United through and through. They are out there living the dream, I would take a team full of players like that but you have to give them games and support or we will never know if they are the next Golden generation. |
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Post by jimbonda on Sept 7, 2013 17:57:40 GMT
same old story it is every time this debate comes up. it's all sideways and backwards passes with this lad. too negative.
much more than a footballer though, he's a BRAND. he's also got a face like a bulldog chewing a thistle, but that shouldn't count against him like some will claim..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2013 18:54:18 GMT
Lads I know some guys here are big Tom fans and that is fair enough. I think Bestie makes a good point and I think real real confidence could be an issue. Is he the type of player that can grab a game by the neck?? Im not sure but I trust the guys here who say he can do this. Quite Possibly a Fellaini/Clevers combination might see the best of him(Carrick cant play every game).One thing I have learned since I joined this forum is a lot of us have very different opinions on a lot of things. However we are all United and any criticism should be in a constructive way. There are enough cunts out there that will give it to us at every chance.
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Post by Stew on Sept 7, 2013 20:32:21 GMT
Lads I know some guys here are big Tom fans and that is fair enough. I think Bestie makes a good point and I think real real confidence could be an issue. Is he the type of player that can grab a game by the neck?? Im not sure but I trust the guys here who say he can do this. Quite Possibly a Fellaini/Clevers combination might see the best of him(Carrick cant play every game).One thing I have learned since I joined this forum is a lot of us have very different opinions on a lot of things. However we are all United and any criticism should be in a constructive way. There are enough cunts out there that will give it to us at every chance. Precisely. I'm a fan of Tom's but I also am realistic enough to see that he doesn't seem to be the type to grab a game by the scruff, yet anyway. Will it come? Who knows. His career trajectory has been steep in the last two seasons. He needs it to go up another notch to become a really top player. He's already an international. When he burst on to the international scene two well known fans of Utd, Gerrard and Lampard were raving about him. But what would they know? |
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Post by Rorschach on Sept 7, 2013 20:43:50 GMT
I think Tom is a good squad player to have but I can't see him being a first-team starter. He's a tidy player; generally good passing, great energy and so on but rarely manages to impose himself on a game and doesn't get forward enough for someone with his energy and drive. I'm hoping he'll do a Fletcher and suddenly become an integral part of the team after years of bashing from fans (at least until his illness cut that short). Still, even if he doesn't, like I said, he's still a good squad player and I also think it's important to keep an English group of players, particularly ones like Cleverley and Welbeck who have been brought through the academy and really love the club (contrary to apparently popular belief, Cleverley isn't a local lad, he was born in Hampshire and raised in Bradford).
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sleel6
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Post by sleel6 on Sept 8, 2013 3:36:55 GMT
It's hardly lunacy saying Tom Cleverley isn't good enough to start for United in fairness. If you have a good reason to back it up then fine but he's clearly being used as a scapegoat. How in fucking Zeus can you possibly single out Clevs against the scousers when the whole team was shit, nobody passed the ball backwards or lost it more than Giggs, but are people getting on his back? Others are saying he's not good enough because he doesnt score enough. So yes it's complete lunacy. He's been quoted as the next Scholes people say, Perhaps its the fact he's only 24 or that this is his 2nd season in the 1st team, give the lad a break, albeit suffering from injuries last season and being left out of the side I think he's done a good job. Funny how Clevs, DDG, Rafael and Valencia have all seemed to have had way more shit than the players that have had ample time to prove their worth. He's not a scapegoat at all. Everyone can see our midfield has been shite for years and everybody on this forum knows that Carrick is probably our most important and consistent player which is proof enough to suggest that the midfield problem may be stemming from the player he is being paired with not being good enough. |
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