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Post by washyourhands on Nov 15, 2015 2:50:49 GMT
Can I just say first off the bat that I am a Muslim and my heart goes out to the victims of these mindless and barbaric attacks. ISIS are butchers, pure and simple, and they have hijacked a religious label to legitimise their own venal, evil political ideology. These bastards have nothing to do with me and they certainly do not represent what I believe in.
An interesting point is that whilst ISIS have claimed responsibility, my first impressions were a proxy terrorist attack, like the earlier January ones in Paris. There is a groundswell of disaffection against the State in the city which is historic and has its roots in the North African, mainly Muslim, immigrant communities. These people have suffered generations of disenfranchisement and social marginalisation and this is exactly the kind of fuel that ISIS feed off, giving such resentment a pseudo religious, political expression. There is little doubt that they found followers here.
Rest in Peace every single innocent soul, may your families and loved ones find solace in time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 2:55:46 GMT
Can I just say first off the bat that I am a Muslim and my heart goes out to the victims of these mindless and barbaric attacks. ISIS are butchers, pure and simple, and they have hijacked a religious label to legitimise their own venal, evil political ideology. These bastards have nothing to do with me and they certainly do not represent what I believe in. An interesting point is that whilst ISIS have claimed responsibility, my first impressions were a proxy terrorist attack, like the earlier January ones in Paris. There is a groundswell of disaffection against the State in the city which is historic and has its roots in the North African, mainly Muslim, immigrant communities. These people have suffered generations of disenfranchisement and social marginalisation and this is exactly the kind of fuel that ISIS feed off, giving such resentment a pseudo religious, political expression. There is little doubt that they found followers here. Rest in Peace every single innocent soul, may your families and loved ones find solace in time. Unfortunately they don't do the genuine Muslims any justice as it seems to tar all with the same brush, don't worry mate we're not blaming you all. I do feel for the genuine muslims as they're bound to get a fair amount of shit for this as well which is unfair. I just had a problem with religion in general. Most preach peace yet they all seem to deliver more hate and harm than anything else. All a load of bullshit brainwashing and propaganda if you ask me. Saw a video earlier done by a Muslim bloke and credit where its due he was bang on. Pretty much asking why are people that don't wish to follow the laws and ways of living here, why don't they fuck off". He was spot on with what he said. |
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Post by washyourhands on Nov 15, 2015 3:18:15 GMT
Can I just say first off the bat that I am a Muslim and my heart goes out to the victims of these mindless and barbaric attacks. ISIS are butchers, pure and simple, and they have hijacked a religious label to legitimise their own venal, evil political ideology. These bastards have nothing to do with me and they certainly do not represent what I believe in. An interesting point is that whilst ISIS have claimed responsibility, my first impressions were a proxy terrorist attack, like the earlier January ones in Paris. There is a groundswell of disaffection against the State in the city which is historic and has its roots in the North African, mainly Muslim, immigrant communities. These people have suffered generations of disenfranchisement and social marginalisation and this is exactly the kind of fuel that ISIS feed off, giving such resentment a pseudo religious, political expression. There is little doubt that they found followers here. Rest in Peace every single innocent soul, may your families and loved ones find solace in time. Unfortunately they don't do the genuine Muslims any justice as it seems to tar all with the same brush, don't worry mate we're not blaming you all. I do feel for the genuine muslims as they're bound to get a fair amount of shit for this as well which is unfair. I just had a problem with religion in general. Most preach peace yet they all seem to deliver more hate and harm than anything else. All a load of bullshit brainwashing and propaganda if you ask me. Saw a video earlier done by a Muslim bloke and credit where its due he was bang on. Pretty much asking why are people that don't wish to follow the laws and ways of living here, why don't they fuck off". He was spot on with what he said. You know Paul mate I don't feel afraid at all and in fact feel privileged to be born and bred in Britain. There is of course a fundamental contradiction in those people who feel so much bitterness that they wish to join toxic institutions such as ISIS; the rights of freedom of expression, justice and humanity, albeit relative terms, are more of a reflection of their religious belief than those murderous thugs will ever manage. By all means express disaffection through reasoned debate and rational means; there is no greater critic of recent American and British Foreign Policy in the Middle East than myself. But this is a right I have been afforded, my right as a British citizen. I will absolutely not start attacking these frameworks, many of these people are class A hypocrites. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't personally think it is helpful to start using labels like 'Western' or 'extreme Islam'. Extremism is Extremism, whether it is 'Islamist' groups or even extreme Buddhist Monks in Burma attacking, wait for it, Muslims! What happened yesterday was an attack on us all and the shared values we should all believe in, in one form or another. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 5:25:46 GMT
Roughly 150 is a massive death toll but thousands of innocent people could be helped by letting people in. The other thing worrying me is how quick people are willing to give up their privacy. Let the government monitor everything. Fuck that shit. The terrorist will win. Getting rid of Hussain for no reason was a massive fuck up. Trying to create democracy where no one wanted it was in hindsight and even bigger fuckup. I wonder if it's not smarter to back a more peaceful Muslim leader to the area. A lesser of two evils. I'm sure that could backfire too but so could everything else being suggested. A long term plan needs to be put in place and we shouldn't be angrily lashing out. If you have nothing to hide, why give a shit? privacy isn't about hiding something. It's a basic human right if you ask me. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 6:39:34 GMT
If you have nothing to hide, why give a shit? privacy isn't about hiding something. It's a basic human right if you ask me. It depends. If your referring to the refugees then granted human rights should be used. However anybody that is related to any terror threat should automatically have their human rights revolked. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 7:32:34 GMT
privacy isn't about hiding something. It's a basic human right if you ask me. It depends. If your referring to the refugees then granted human rights should be used. However anybody that is related to any terror threat should automatically have their human rights revolked. I'm reffering to us not being spied on. |
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Post by Stew on Nov 15, 2015 8:49:40 GMT
I'm all for helping people in need but we don't know who these people are. Oh they have a passport? Oh great that will be enough as they can't be forged so your safe. Please enter our country as we know who you are now. Utter bullshit. I'm sorry Paul but you don't get to pick and choose the consequences of sticking your nose in. The West has interfered in the Middle East for as long as any of us remember and we all know why. ISIS and their 'kingdom' was only possible by the desire to overthrow Assad and Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq which completely destabilised the area. You cannot act like this and then turn your back on the people that are suffering hugely due to your actions. The vast majority of terrorist attacks in recent years have been carried out by nationals of that country. Disenchanted, unemployed youths who are easy targets for extremists. Closing borders won't stop that and will doom countless thousands to their death. Is that how the West should behave, seeing as how it likes to view itself? The far right today are making great play out of this attack and immigration. I find one of the better rules in life is that whatever the European far right think, think the fucking opposite. |
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Post by CaajScot on Nov 15, 2015 9:06:18 GMT
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Post by Stew on Nov 15, 2015 9:28:26 GMT
Also, and I don't want to turn this into Homeland, but a Syrian passport at the scene of one of the bombings? Why would a suicide bomber bring his passport with him? Seems like a very deliberate choice by ISIS to turn sentiment against refugees (whom they hate and want to enslave or kill lest we forget) which is working.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 9:44:00 GMT
Also, and I don't want to turn this into Homeland, but a Syrian passport at the scene of one of the bombings? Why would a suicide bomber bring his passport with him? Seems like a very deliberate choice by ISIS to turn sentiment against refugees (whom they hate and want to enslave or kill lest we forget) which is working. Poloce think they were fakes. |
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Post by washyourhands on Nov 15, 2015 11:11:17 GMT
I'm all for helping people in need but we don't know who these people are. Oh they have a passport? Oh great that will be enough as they can't be forged so your safe. Please enter our country as we know who you are now. Utter bullshit. I'm sorry Paul but you don't get to pick and choose the consequences of sticking your nose in. The West has interfered in the Middle East for as long as any of us remember and we all know why. ISIS and their 'kingdom' was only possible by the desire to overthrow Assad and Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq which completely destabilised the area. You cannot act like this and then turn your back on the people that are suffering hugely due to your actions. The vast majority of terrorist attacks in recent years have been carried out by nationals of that country. Disenchanted, unemployed youths who are easy targets for extremists. Closing borders won't stop that and will doom countless thousands to their death. Is that how the West should behave, seeing as how it likes to view itself? The far right today are making great play out of this attack and immigration. I find one of the better rules in life is that whatever the European far right think, think the fucking opposite. This a thousand, million times over. It is so important that the anger that ensues from this does not just replicate and feed existing cycles of hate and fear. Look, regardless of where it has originated from, far right discourse is the same and has the same end game, everywhere, and that is homogeneity. The far right in this country has a specifically ideological agenda; their version of 'Britishness' is specifically singular and has no room for grubby refugees, 'savage Islam' or anything that is 'other' to it, just like extremist 'Islam' refers to its 'infidels'. You only have to go back to WW2 to see the truly heinous consequences of far right ideology. Almost inevitably, it is always the marginalised and weak who are its victims so to find comfort in the far right in this country would be utterly myopic and moronic in my opinion. As Stewart has so brilliantly highlighted already, context is all important in this and is easy to forget when issues are so emotive. 'The West' and its itinerant powers have been playing 'the great game' as some have called it, in the Middle East, for Donkeys years. The ground is almost always softened by creating a binary between 'the civilised, democratic forces' and the inevitably 'savage and backward East'. This kind of framework creates legitimacy in people's minds and has been the pretext for colonialism for centuries. The same kind of thing is evident now in the aftemath of these attacks and it is unsettling. The refugee crisis is a direct result of the the intervention of 'Western powers' in these countries. We saw it in Afghanistan in the 80s, where once the American political aim was achieved, the vacuum was filled by the very Taliban forces they helped train to defeat the Soviets. ISIS is similar but in an Iraqi and Syrian context. The fall out in terms of refugees who flee the resulting persecution cannot be made the straw man for all the problems that ensue. SomethingRed made a great point about how the 'them' and 'us' reaction is underpinned by the notion that a non 'Western' life appears to be worth more than that of an 'other's'. So the thousands (conservative estimate) that have been killed in American drone strikes, air strikes in Iraq and other countries are dismissed as that horrible term 'collateral damage'. And of course very recently as Caaj Scot reminded us, there was an attack by the same ISIS murderers in Beirut. The far right can go fuck themselves, wherever they may hail from. |
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Post by CaajScot on Nov 15, 2015 13:06:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 13:06:55 GMT
It's almost understandable that people lash out in the immediate aftermath of something like this. And that lashing out often goes in the wrong directions. The far right know this and will capitalise on it in the exact same way that ISIS capitalise on the same disenfranchisement from the Muslim world. The only thing we can really do is to continually present counter arguments in an eloquent and reasoned manner, as Stew and washyourhands have done.
I seem to be waging a one man battle against my own Facebook feed at the moment, and it's been utterly disheartening to witness the levels of bigotry being filtered through the lens of the Paris attacks. .
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Post by Reduntildeath on Nov 15, 2015 13:32:07 GMT
Also, and I don't want to turn this into Homeland, but a Syrian passport at the scene of one of the bombings? Why would a suicide bomber bring his passport with him? Seems like a very deliberate choice by ISIS to turn sentiment against refugees (whom they hate and want to enslave or kill lest we forget) which is working. Back-narrative is just what Daesh want,and judging by some of the totally ignorant tripe on social media,they are well on their way to achieving this. |
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Post by _ on Nov 15, 2015 13:39:55 GMT
Sadly history doesn't help us. We can go down many roots and branches leading to a mass of confusion. And where do we start if we do look to history, the Crusades, the fall of Constantinople, the Muslim incursions into Europe and the Battle of Vienna, maybe the Ottoman Empire, the German intrigues, the British and French Empires and the making of Israel, the Muslim outrages against Christianity in the Middle East, the Armenian genocide, the 1930s terrorism against Jews, the Jewish post 1945 claims, Nasser and the war against Israel, the emergence of Islamic fundamentalism in 1950s Egypt, the Suez Canal, the French Algerian War, the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, the 1970s Palestinian terrorism against civil aviation, 1972 Olympics, 1973 Arab-Israeli war, French support for Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranian Revolution, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Isreali occupations in Palestine, the 50th anniversary of Arab refugees in Palestine, the Arrafat backed terrorism, the Libyan Embassy shooting in London, the first attract on the twin towers, the first Iraq War, breakdown of Yugoslavia and the Bosnian Muslim- Serbian atrocities, the murder of Rabin by right wing extremists, the Isreali invasion of Lebanon, Isreal-Syrian conflict, Libyan back atrocities in Northern Ireland, 911, the London bombings, the Spanish bombings, the German Muslim murders, the televised killing of a British soldier, the Charlie Hebdo, the Turkish bombings, the second Iraq war, the invasion of Afghanistan, the Arab Spring, the Syrian implosion, the Saudi outrages, the Kenyan shopping mall, Nigerian atrocities, the Ethiopian atrocities, the Arab republic of Yemen, the attack on the French nuclear site, the foiled attack on the international train and now Paris again. In such a jumble it's easy to pick sides and accuse religion, politics etc for the blame. However ...
Committing murder, planned and public within Europe has involved individuals born and raised in western countries, that is the fact. Many of the incidents could not have been committed by people who don't know the landscape or the culture. This is not new to Europe with Baader Meinhoff, RAF, IRA, Basque, Croat, and Lithuanian terrorists, or freedom fighters, ever present in post 1945. Trying to ignore why a group of young men from Luton triggered bombs on a tube, a young lady born and raised in Yorkshire ends up in Kenya behind a shopping mall atrocity, or a couple of men from Paris went on killing spree is a major challenge. This turn to violence is a powerful step and blaming it solely on ISIS is failing to comprehend this transformation. ISIS wasn't around for the Luton or Madrid bombings, and was not behind 911. The confusion and plethora of political violence cannot be drawn into pockets and territories as in old style conflicts. The method of recruitment, initiation to murder are not easily prepared. Do they really all travel to Syria to get some training and then come back - No. The primary process is in Europe. This has always been a European problem and no politicians want to address it. The question is simple, why have disaffected Christian and Muslim youths turned to violent Islam?
Forget all this Muslim, Christianity, religious stuff it only clutters the mind and confuses the problem. I don't believe any of my Muslim friends are violent but that isn't the issue. The question is why are people prepared to pick up the gun or bomb for what is certain suicide? Is it really a sense of hopelessness traded in for vague promises of an eternal future - that to my mind doesn't cut it. Is it the 5 minutes in the spot light, is it the campaign, the vocation or is it now fashionable like actors sporting ethnic beards? Until we begin to truly understand the transformation of people in modern Europe, from their potential of a long moderately safe and secure lifestyle into would be terrorists, these atrocities will continue.
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